Navy Estimates. administration of the Duke of Northum-rangement that was made some years ago, berland, if I did not say that to his Grace, but in which it would be now necessary to acting upon the advice of Sir Baldwin make some alteration. It was now required Walker, we owe the application of the that every post-captain should serve a screw principle to a large number of ships certain number of years after he was of war. Whatever may be said, therefore, posted, or otherwise, when he came to the of the state of preparation in which our head of the list, he would be put on the naval forces now are, the praise is to be retired list, and would not be employed in distributed among my predecessors, who active service. Now he thought that the have introduced great and decided improve- whole of an officer's service should be taken ments into all the branches of that depart- into consideration. Some of those who ment of the public service. The result is, were set aside had served much longer Sir, that without over-confidence I may than the required time as midshipmen, two assure the Committee, that I believe the or three times the required period as lieuBritish Navy will be found more efficient tenants, and three or four times the period than ever it was before, and ready and as commanders; but because they had not prepared to maintain the honour and inde- served six years as post-captains, they were pendence of the country. I now beg to not considered fit to be made admirals. move a vote of 138,4671. for the Admi- Such men might have been twenty years ralty Office. afloat, when those who were made admirals because they had served the six years might not have been more than thirteen or fourteen years afloat. With regard to the reduction of the active list, he would remind the Committee that the French navy had only two admirals, five or six vice-admirals, and eight or ten rear-admirals, all of whom must have seen service, and must be really good officers. In the American navy there was not a single admiral, and there were very few commodores. He wished to see the Navy more efficient than it had hitherto been; but no systematic improvements could be effected when so many changes took place in the Board of Admiralty. There had been seven First Lords since 1840. He would call the attention of the Committee to another important point. They had voted that night something more than 5l. per man for raising 18,900 soldiers, and it was not fair or equitable not to offer an equal bounty to seamen as they did to the soldiers, and to the marines, who served with the seamen. They wanted 7,000 men for the Navy, and they should offer 5l. per head to come to them. The nature of the sailors was this-they were generally in want of cash, and if they told them there was ready money for them, which would enable them to put on a new suit of clothes, they were likely to accept of it. He must protest against their entering more landsmen than were necessary, for it was very seldom that a grown man could ever be made a good seaman, and they were liable to all sorts of accidents on board ship. He hoped, also, that the landsmen who were entered would not be required to be five feet six inches in height, as by taking a lower standard, they would 2 U CAPTAIN SCOBELL said, he thought there was no one in the nation who would be more worthy to be a permanent First Lord of the Admiralty than the right hon. Gentleman who now filled the office; but it would be well if they could divest the office of all Parliamentary influence, and apply to it the principle which was laid down in the paragraph used with respect to the dockyards-that merit, and merit only, should be the ground for advancement. He was glad to find that this rule was about to be introduced into the Civil Service, and he hoped the same alteration would soon be made with regard to the Army and Navy, for then the best talent in each of those professions would be brought forward certainly in a greater degree than it had been for the last thirty or forty years. They had 7,000 officers of all descriptions belonging to the Navy, there was about 250 or 260 admirals, and about 400 post-captains. There was no way, in his opinion, to bring the Navy into an efficient state, even in war time, but by at least reducing their active list one-half. In consequence of having so large a list, the officers were four or five years on shore for every one they were at sea; and some of the admirals, when they hoisted their flags, had been a quarter of a century on shore, and when that is the case, however able they may be, they get out of order and rusty. There were 3,000 officers on the retired list, and 1,690 admirals, captains, and lieutenants, of whom a great many would never go afloat again; and the navy list was kept crowded without any good to it whatever. He would glance at an ar VOL. CXXX. [THIRD SERIES.] obtain men who did not come up to the military height, besides which it was well known that a tall man on board ship always found his head in his way. They were told they were on the verge of a war, and he dare say they were. He trusted and believed the Navy would do their duty. They never had such powerful ships, and he only hoped they would have such good crews as they had during the last war. It should be, however, observed, that the best crews did not shake into their places for some months, and they could not expect that ships would all at once be as effective as if they had been in commission for six or eight months. It required time to enable the officers to judge of them, and to put them in their places. Some remarks had been made, reflecting on the conduct of the Ambassador at Constantinople (he would leave him to take care of himself), and also on the conduct of the Admirals in command of the Black Sea fleet. Comments had been made as to why they went here and there; but they should recollect the dangers that must occur in an unknown sea of narrow dimensions, where the fleets of two nations were cruising together; and the best thing to do during the dark nights and bad weather was to do what had been done to keep up a chain of steamers between themselves and Sebastopol, let the Russians go to sea, and then get between them and Sebastopol and stop them. Some of the Gentlemen who commented upon those matters had never seen a gale of wind. With respect to the Baltic, he had served there three years, and had been at the blockade of Cronstadt. At that time they were at war with Denmark, Sweden, and Russia. The enemy managed to get in, and all they could do was to blockade them. Whether their screws would do more he could not say, but at all events they kept the enemy in, and they never attempted to get out. He hoped for more decided results, however, both in the Black Sea and in the Baltic. that he wished to avoid a general discussion of their Eastern policy. MR. HUME said, this was a question of great importance, because it was just possible that there might be a difficulty for the future in obtaining seamen. Good seamen were scarce, and he hoped Government would not hesitate, if it should be found necessary, to increase the pay of the sailor, who was required for the service of his country. Whilst every class of labourers and artisans were receiving an advance in their wages, it was only right the Navy should participate in the rise; and he trusted there would be some attention paid to this point by the department whose especial duty it should be to look after it. True, a great improvement had taken place in the quantity and quality of the accommodation provided for men who entered the Navy, and he had no doubt that if the same spirit of liberality were extended to the pay, but little difficulty would be found in securing an ample and efficient number of volunteers for the future requirements of the Navy. SIR JAMES GRAHAM said, that some short time back the House had consented to a considerable increase in the pay of the sailor, and also that the Board of Amiralty had reconsidered the question of secondary punishments, and the result had been that they had thought it desirable to mitigate their severity, and he was glad to be able to state that crime was on the decrease. The result of the endeavour to raise additional seamen had been most satisfactory. Notwithstanding the general rise in seamen's wages, and the emigration from all parts of the United Kingdom, the royal service had become so popular that since November, 1852, 7,000 additional seamen and 1,800 marines had been entered, showing that there was no necessity at the present time for any bounty. The hon. and gallant Member (Captain Scobell) was in error in supposing a bounty of 51. would only involve the sum of 85,000l. for the 7,000 fresh volunteers. By a just law the Admiralty would be bound to give the same bounty to the scamen already entered, and that would amount to at least 200,000l. The spirit of the seafaring population was above all praise, and, as a proof of the alacrity with which the men came forward, he was happy to say they had in the month Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, that of February entered no less than 900 men in that case he would bring the subject by voluntary enlistment alone, and volunforward on the Motion for going into Com-teers were still coming in as quickly as Imittee on a future occasion. His object they could desire. SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he wished to address the Committee in reference to the affair at Sinope. The CHAIRMAN said, that it would be irregular to submit a Motion of that subject on the question of a Vote for the expenses of the Admiralty Office. in wishing to discuss that subject now was SIR GEORGE PECHELL said he fully discussing the affair at Sinope. Surely the slave trade of Cuba was quite as irregular. The CHAIRMAN said, the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton was connecting it with the administration of the Admiralty. hon. Gentleman whether that valuable article, marine glue, so useful in the construction of the masts of line-of-battle ships and of the larger class of vessels generally, was still made use of in the Navy? This glue also enabled them to get rid of the process of caulking, and the use of pitch on board of our vessels, which, in tropical climates, was a very offensive nuisance. agreed with the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) that there was no fear of any want of seamen, neither did there appear any necessity for giving a bounty to induce seamen to enter. They had waited to see if the Emperor of Russia was really in SIR GEORGE PECHELL said, he earnest, and now that they saw a good considered the interruption of the noble chance of active service, they had come Lord very unnecessary, and really thought forward. He was glad that the experi- the hon. Baronet (Sir H. Willoughby) ment of calling the coast guard men into might have discussed the dreadful cataservice had been successful, and he thought strophe at Sinope, as the Admiralty had that that circumstance might lead to de- sent a fleet to the neighbourhood, without fects being pointed out which ought not to appealing to the Chairman at all on the exist. It was intended when the coast- matter. Perhaps some discussion of that guard service was established that it should subject would have been of advantage in consist of sailors who received good cha- preventing the recurrence of so great a racters from ships just paid off; but he calamity. It was satisfactory to find that feared that there were at present men in the screw propeller was now to be applied that force who did not even know how to all the vessels of the Royal Navy. He to sling their hammocks. He had the hoped the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. strongest hope, and, indeed, he firmly Graham) would not forget the subject of believed, that in the impending struggle the freight-money receivable by officers in the ships and seamen of this country the Navy. He wished to ask the right would do their duty, for there was no period in the former history of the country at which its Navy was in such an efficient condition. With regard to the injustice of placing post-captains who had not been six years at sea, when they came to the head of their list, on what was called the reserved list, and not upon the list for active service as admirals, the subject had been fully discussed in the other House of Parliament, though he had not observed it stated that sometimes the captains got better situations, and did not apply for any appointment to ships in commission. It was a great advantage to the service that such strenuous attempts had been made to abolish corporal punishment, and, indeed, at the present day, any officer whose books showed that a very great amount of punish ment had been inflicted on board his ship would suffer in his future career. The First Lord of the Admiralty had given them reason to believe all the ships would be required to perform services in the Baltic and Black Sea, but he hoped some attention would be paid to the suppression of the slave trade, which could only be done effectually by a blockade of the coast of Cuba. He hoped the Admiralty had taken such precautions as to leave a sufficient number of ships for the purpose, for he observed the present captain general of Cuba was determined to prevent the importation of slaves LORD JOHN MANNERS rose to order. The Chairman had prevented the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby) SIR JAMES GRAHAM said, he would begin first with the glue. He had the greatest pleasure in telling the hon. and gallant Member that, so far from the use of that article being discontinued in the Navy, it still proved a very efficacious and excellent material, which was used very largely, and effected a great saving to the public. The practice with regard to freightmoney, to which the hon. and gallant Member referred, had been superseded in a great degree by the course of events; and he was not aware that any instance of it had occurred for a considerable period. There was another observation of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, which he could not allow to pass unnoticed. It would be very undesirable that it should be supposed in Africa and Cuba that, on account of the naval exertions this country was called on to make, we had the least intention of relaxing our efforts in suppressing the slave trade. He (Sir J. Graham) had great pleasure in informing the Committee that he had not withdrawn from the African station a single ship, and he had no intention to do so. The flagship would be replaced by a most efficient screw steamer; and the directions of the Admiral were to keep a close watch, the earnest resolution of the Government being, that the efforts and vigilance of the squadron in suppressing the slave trade should not undergo any diminution. MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he gave the right hon. Baronet credit for not having increased the number of clerks in the dockyards, notwithstanding the great increase of labour which had taken place in those yards, but he could not help calling the attention of the Committee to the fact that there were no less than 243 clerks employed in the Admiralty, and sixty-seven messengers, being one messenger for every four clerks. That was monstrous. LORD DUDLEY STUART said, he must express his regret that the Chairman had decided against hearing the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby) on the subject of Sinope. He thought the hon. Baronet was in order in referring to that disastrous affair, especially as they were about to vote money to pay the salaries of the servants of the Board of Admiralty; but he bowed to the decision of the Chair. He did not think there would have been any objection to such a discussion after the patriotic speech of the noble Lord, which was worthy of a Minister of that great country, and of the leader of that House-not shrinking from stigmatising the Emperor of Russia in terms that were deserved and followed as he was, in the same spirit, by his noble Friend the Secretary for the Home Department. After hearing these speeches with reference to the prosecution of the war, in a manly, vigorous style, worthy of the country, he was willing to give the Government his most earnest, cheerful, and decided support. While he was on his legs, he would like to put it to the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it would not be desirable, in order to make the naval service more popular, to abolish the practice of impress ment. MR. LAING said, he wished to know from the right hon. Baronet whether there was any truth in the rumour that our sailors were to be armed with Colt's revolvers? Having seen it stated that the Russian sailors on board the fleet in the Black Sea were armed with these weapons, he believed it would be very satisfactory to the country to feel that our sailors were no less efficiently equipped. SIR JAMES GRAHAM said, that there was no intention on the part of the Ad miralty to supply Her Majesty's ships with COLONIAL CLERGY DISABILITIES BILL. THE SOLICITOR GENERAL, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to relieve the colonial clergy from certain disabilities, said, he should confine himself at that late hour to a very brief statement of the object of the measure, of the way in which it was proposed to attain it, and of the reasons which made it necessary that some such measure should be passed. There was at present a great deal of doubt as to the legality of the colonial clergy meeting together for the purpose of agreeing, either among themselves or in conjunction with the lay members of the Church, upon any regulations or arrangements which might be necessary for the conduct of their ecclesiastical affairs. Hon. Members who were present at the discussion of the questions that took place in the preceding Parliament would remember that disability arose-or was supposed, and he thought justly, to arise-out of a Statute passed in the reign of King Henry VIII., and which prohibited the clergy from meeting together for the purpose of making any order, canon, or constitution, without being summoned for that purpose by the King. That Statute had become part of the supremacy of the Crown, and as the supremacy was held to extend over the whole country as well as to any foreign possession, there was very good reason, he thought, for the apprehension that the colonial clergy-carrying with them, as they did, the obligation of obedience to that Statute-would be acting in violation of the law if they attempted any meeting, either by themselves or jointly with the laity, for the purpose of making any ecclesiastical regulation or arrangement. The effect of this disability was to press very hardly on the clergy, and to place the Church of England in the Colonies in a position very far inferior to the freedom possessed by religious bodies of every other denomination. It became abundantly necessary, therefore, that some step should be taken, not for making any Church establishment in the Colonies, but for giving to the Church of England there the same freedom which was enjoyed by other communions. It was unfair to place the clergy in a position of inferiority to other religious bodies in countries where 1 1321 Russia and the Porte {FEB. 27, 1854} Russian Naval Movements. 1322 THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, that there was no more reason to fear that by this measure the clergy would be relieved from the supremacy of the Crown than from their obedience to the laws of England. Leave given. Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. they had not the same tribunals to appeal | oppose the introduction of the Bill, but to which were available to their brethren he must reserve to himself the right of in this country; and it was necessary that judging of the measure when the Bill was the disability should be removed, because printed. He was afraid that it might be in the present state of things it was im- open to the objection that it did little else possible to have the mutual relations be- than relieve the clergy in the Colonies from tween the clergy and their bishops defined the supremacy of the Crown. and carried out. The result was, that the MR. J. G. PHILLIMORE said, that bishop exercised despotic power; and he the measure would not abolish the sumight deprive a clergyman of his licence, premacy of the Crown, but would merely and, with his licence, of the stipend which place the Church of England in the Colohe received from the Colonial Legislature nies in the same position as other religious -taking away from him his whole ecclesi- bodies. It was a melancholy thing that astical and clerical status, and, in fact, de- this boon should have come so late, but he priving him altogether of his privileges, thanked the Government for having taken without his having any opportunity of ap-up a question with which all previous Gopeal. The bishops were reluctant to exer- vernments had been unable or unwilling to cise this power; the clergy felt themselves grapple. oppressed by the existence of a power which was not regulated by a legal check; and it had been very generally felt, on a variety of occasions, that some legislation on this particular subject was necessary. The difficulty in legislating appeared to be to confine the Bill to the mere object of removing the disability, without proceeding by implication to do what he believed would be very generally deprecated, giving the clergy and laity the power, when assembled, to make laws; or imparting to any regulations on which they might agree the force of an Imperial enactment. the Bill which he had prepared he had endeavoured to collect what he believed to be the prevailing sentiment on both sides of the House; for he had found, on both sides, a concurrent expression of opinion that it was absolutely necessary that there should be legislative interference, but that it should be expressly confined to conferring upon the Church a liberty correspondent with that enjoyed by other religious sects. To that purpose it was strictly limited; and, therefore, while it took away from the clergy, while in the Colonies and doing spiritual duty there, the disability to meet, either by themselves or with their lay brethren, for the purpose of dealing with their ecclesiastical affairs, it was careful to provide that no authority should be conferred, or derived by implication from the Statute which could give to any regulations made at any of these meetings any binding force, unless, indeed, they were confirmed by an Act of the Colonial Legislature. These were the general features of the Bill, which he hoped would meet with the assent of both sides of the House. In MR. HENLEY said, that he would not The House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock till Monday next. HOUSE OF LORDS, Monday, February 27, 1854. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1 Second Common 2a County Court Extension Act Explanation. Law Procedure (1854). RUSSIA AND THE PORTE RUSSIAN NAVAL MOVEMENTS. THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, I wish to put a question to my noble Friend at the head of Her Majesty's Government, with reference to a circumstance which came to my knowledge yesterday. It appears that a general order has been issued from St. Petersburg for the preparation for sea of twelve frigates and corvettes on the breaking up of the ice. The question I have to put is, whether Her Majesty's Ministers intend, if they can, to prevent those frigates and corvettes from leaving the Baltic? It is impossible to entertain the smallest doubt that the intention of Russia with respect to these twelve ships of war is to send them out of the Baltic before our ships arrive at the entrance to the Categat. If they leave the Categat and reach the entrance of the |