head of the Admiralty says, the Turks alone were to blame for their loss at Sinope, as they had been lying there for several weeks in a most unguarded state; and, further, had been warned of their danger by our Ambassador at Constantinople.

they must tell them civilly to go into port, | bour." After listening to this discussion, and if they as civilly consented, no shots I find a difficulty in deciding where to lay must be fired, but the Admirals must take the blame. The right hon. Baronet at the off their hats to each other, and say they were mutually obliged. The House must recollect that the Black Sea was a very dangerous sea, and that a fleet at sea required a great deal of room, and that its movements must always be regulated by the slowest ships belonging to it. He really thought, as far as he was able to judge of the conduct of the Government, that they had taken steps in advance of the circumstances; for it was something new to hear it said, even before there was a declaration of war, that the fleets of another nation were to be forced back into port. Let them stop until war was declared, and then he had no doubt that the hon. Baronet (Sir H. Willoughby) and the noble Lord the Member for Marylebone (Lord D. Stuart) would be perfectly satisfied with what the British fleet would do. Nothing could be more irksome than for a fleet to be placed in such circumstances, and to be kept without orders to act; but only let those orders be given, and he was sure that the same energy, and decision, and vigour in action would be shown which had always hitherto characterised the Navy of this country.

As

Another hon. Gentleman lays the blame on Admiral Dundas for not following out the orders and instructions he had received. Again, the hon. Baronet below me, who originated this discussion, says the fault was with our Ambassador in not allowing Admiral Slade to proceed into the Black Sea with the rest of the Turkish fleet, which fleet was fully able to have protected the fleet at Sinope, and to have coped successfully with that of Russia. I repeat, I find it impossible to decide which of these statements is correct, and who is to blame for this bloody massacre at Sinope. But, Sir, I may be allowed to express my belief that if our Government had been more energetic at the commencement of these Eastern difficulties, if an early expression of our ultimate intentions had been given to Russia, if the passage of the Pruth had been made a casus belli, then I believe we should not have been at this moment on the eve of a terrible war, of which no one can foresee the end. we are about to embark in this war, let it not be barren of results. We want, first, security from Russia against her invading prosperous and peaceful countries. We want also the abrogation of the old treaties between the Porte and Russia, and the renunciation on her part of all control over the Principalities and of Servia; the restoration of the mouths of the Danube to the Porte, and the opening of the Black Sea to the fleets and ships of all nations. These are the objects we have to accomplish, and without which we shall have entered on a bloody and costly war to very little purpose. In fact, if we go to war, we should not be at war for nothing, but demand from Russia a quid pro quo, not a MR. SANDARS: It is not my intention, hollow peace, putting off the evil day for a Sir, to trespass upon the time of the House, few years when we may not be in the same or to prevent its going into Committee of favourable position as at present for reSupply beyond a very few minutes. The un- pelling her aggression. We are now at toward affair at Sinope was, all must admit, peace with all the world-France our firm a most unfortunate event, and characterised, ally, Austria and Prussia favourable to our on the part of Russia, by the greatest cruelty policy; Russia stands alone. I have said and barbarity, and, as expressed by the noble that the Government made a mistake in Lord, was a horrid butchery of the Turks not acting with more energy and determiwhilst lying peaceably in their own har-nation at the commencement of this affair ;

LORD JOHN MANNERS said, that no information had been afforded to the House with regard to the attack of the Russians upon Fort St. Nicholas, and he thought that, if such information had been received, it ought to be laid upon the table. He wished to know whether Her Majesty's Government were in possession of any information on that subject, and, if so, whether they were prepared to lay it before the House? The people of this country seemed to think that whenever the British fleet was withdrawn from the Black Sea there was certain to be some fresh aggression on the part of Russia, and he therefore considered it important that the Government should produce any information which might be in their possession with respect to the attack on Fort St. Nicholas.

prescriptive confines of Turkish empire, but eradicate the civilisation and trample upon the liberties of Europe.

system of government this House has a be resumed without consideration; the peoconstitutional right to insist upon the pro-ple will not be well pleased with barren exduction of this despatch, but we are not ertions; they will not permit any Minister without a precedent for withholding impor- to lose in diplomacy that which may be tant papers. In the years 1831, 1832; bought with blood. The Euxine must be and 1833, momentous events were taking free to every flag; the ports of the Danube place. The Pasha of Egypt had embarked free to every sail; the punishment of Rusin a struggle with the Sultan for securing sia must be severe, as it has been tardy ; to himself the independence of his throne it must be worthy of the nations which and the pashalic of Acre, in the autumn of inflict it. And if the necessity arises, they 1831; his forces commenced their mareh must be prepared to circumscribe within in July, 1832, and after various successes, the original limits of a Muscovite dukedom his army passed the Taurus and was ala Power that would not only efface the most at the gates of Constantinople. In this extremity the Porte appealed to England for protection and Russia joined in that appeal. However, the noble Lord MR. PHILLIPS said, he thought it the Member for Tiverton, who at that was useless to enter into a discussion as period held the portfolio of Foreign Affairs, to what might have been the result if a refused his interference; and in September different course of action had been adopted the battle of Kornah was fought. In De- by Her Majesty's Government. Ile concember, Lord Ponsonby was appointed sidered that the House ought to adopt one Ambassador to the Porte; but amusing of two courses-either to say that the himself in Italy, after the fatigues of his Government had so completely mismanaged diplomatie exertions in Belgium, he did matters during these long negotiations not reach Constantinople until May, 1833; that they were unfit to be trusted with the during this important and critical interval, conduct of the war; or to give them the England was represented at Constantinople confidence of the House, and allow them by an ordinary secretary of legation. It to adopt such measures as they deemed was under these circumstances that Russia requisite. He hoped that, as he was the tendered her assistance to the Porte, and least important speaker in that debate, her fleet anchored in the Bosphorus; and in he might be the last, and he would only a few days afterwards, 2,000 Russians en-add that he was prepared to give his camped on the Asiatic side, the conse- humble support to any measures that quence of which was, that Count Orloff, in might be necessary for carrying on the July, 1833, extorted from the Sultan a treaty, by which he closed the Dardanelles to all Powers at war with, and virtually surrendered himself to Russia. That treaty has never been laid upon the table of this House; it was required by Mr. Sheil in 1834, and he was told by the noble Lord, that its production at that period might affect our diplomatic negotiations with Russia and endanger the peace of Europe. It was again asked for in 1837, and the noble Lord, with much effrontery, told the House that it had been produced three years before. Is the same thing, I ask, to happen again? Are we to be told three years or three months hence that this despatch which is now withheld was produced on this occasion? There is a grow-mours, which afterwards turned out to be ing feeling in the country that the armaments which are being sent forth are intended, not for the protection, but for the partition of Turkey; but I caution the Government not to become the antagonist of the people. As the sword has been drawn with reluctance, the scabbard must not VOL. CXXX. [THIRD SERIES.

war.

LORD JOIN RUSSELL said, he trusted that the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman who had last spoken would be acted upon by the House, and that this discussion might now be considered as finished. He (Lord J. Russell) would have been very glad if he had been able to answer correctly, at that moment, the question of the noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Manners). On a former evening he (Lord J. Russell) had with him in the House the papers relating to that subject; but, as he had not those papers with him now, he was not sure that he could give the noble Lord a correct description of what had occurred. There had been ru

false, of an attack upon the Turkish coast; but there had been an attack by land upon the fort of St. Nicholas, and an attack was also made by three small steamers upon a fort near Trebizond, but on the firing of a few shots they disappeared. Nothing, in short, of any serious kind had

2 Y

occurred since the disaster at Sinope. On | been in office, he believed the management the other hand, Sir Edmund Lyons had of that department had been much more gone twice with a squadron to Batoum, economical and efficient than was formerly and had convoyed vessels containing a the case; but he wished to call the attenlarge number of troops. Another squadron tion of the right hon. Baronet to the fact of English and French steamers had gone that, since the termination of the last to the neighbourhood of Sebastopo!; they war, there had been an expenditure of had sailed to the entrance of the Sea of 62,500,0001. upon wages, machinery, and Azof, and they had only seen three small other items in the dockyards, and he Russian steamers at anchor. He was as- would like to know what practical advansured that no Russian men-of-war had tage the country had derived in return for been seen at sea by the various vessels of such vast expenditure. There had also the combined fleets which had been de- been, within the same period, an expendispatched in different directions. The ture of 10,500,000l. for the enlargement squadron sent to Varna could not observe of dockyards; only one new one, that of any Russian men-of-war; and, in fact, the Pembroke, having been constructed. If Russians had not kept at sea since the the right hon. Gentleman would take stock orders were given to the combined fleets of the ships, putting a fair value on them, subsequently to the affair of Sinope. He and making a most liberal allowance for (Lord J. Russell) had no further statement repairs, he ventured to assert he would to make to the House at that moment, and find at least 25,000,000l. of money that he hoped they would now go into Commit- could not be accounted for-that had been tee of Supply. squandered in extravagance, mismanagement, and inability in the dockyards. Ships had been altered, and almost made entirely new, two or three times over. He also wished to call the attention of the right hon. Baronet to the large expenditure of naval agents at different stations, for taking care of stores, ammunition, and various things. They had large establishments belonging to the Navy department, and still larger for the Ordnance and commissariat department, all at the same place. He thought a saving might be made, if the same agent conducted the three departments. He would also suggest that a savings bank should be established for the Navy.

SUPPLY-NAVY ESTIMATES.

House in Committee, Mr. Bouverie in the Chair.

(1.) 50,000l., Royal Naval Coast Volun

teers.

MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he would now take the opportunity, which he could not do when, on a previous occasion, the estimates were first brought in at two o'clock in the morning, to make some general observations respecting them. He begged, in the first place, to call the attention of the First Lord of the Admiralty to the number of admirals. It appeared by these votes that there were sixteen admirals on active service, only ten of whom were employed on board, the other four being what were called port admirals. Against these there were 261 admirals in a state of idleness, receiving half-pay or on the pension list. Again, take the captains; there were ninety-three captains and 127 commanders, making a total of 220 on the active list, against 464 in a state of idleness. Then again, as to lieutenants and masters, there were 519 employed, against 1,143 unemployed. Really this exhibited a monstrous state of things, and he hoped the right hon. Baronet would take the subject seriously into his consideration. Only think of 755 officers of all ranks being employed in a fleet the most powerful ever sent out by this country, and 1,868 in a state of idleness. He (Mr. Williams) must say that, since the present First Lord of the Admiralty had

SIR JAMES GRAHAM said, he must thank the hon. Member for the support which he had given to the Government in reference to these estimates hitherto, and would gladly answer his observations, although they had no direct reference to the vote immediately before the Committee. And, first, with respect to the number of officers on half-pay, beginning, as his hon. Friend had done, with those of the highest rank. His hon. Friend must be aware that this question had been very closely examined by the Committee on the Naval Estimates, of which the noble Lord the Member for Totness (Lord Seymour) was Chairman; that the number of admirals on the active list was at that time considerably larger than at present; that, in conformity with the recommendation of that Committee, the number had been reduced to 100, at which it remained fixed; that the pro

motions were only made one by one from [ject, and his attention would continue to the list of post-captains as vacancies oc- be, as it had been, anxiously directed to curred; and that all brevets had ceased. With respect to captains and commanders, the rule which limited the promotions to one for every three vacancies, was strictly adhered to, and there was every desire upon the part of the Admiralty to reduce the number to the minimum consistent with the efficiency of the service. With respect to the lieutenants, the number on the effective list had been so much reduced, that in the armaments which were now taking place, they had really immense difficulty in getting the number they required; and he did think, that with respect to that list, some reconsideration of the rule now in force would become essential; and if brevets were to cease, as he thought they ought in reference to the higher ranks, he did think that some promotions from lieutenants to commanders would be found indispenably necessary in order to afford encouragement to this most important and hard-working class of offi

cers.

With respect to the expenditure for wages and materials in the dockyards, his hon. Friend should recollect the immense changes which had lately taken place with respect to the construction of ships; first, from sailing vessels having given way to paddle-wheel steamers, and still more recently from the introduction of the screw. It was impossible that changes so considerable could be made without expense; but considering that it was our duty at all times to maintain our position as the greatest naval nation in the world, he, for one, did not regret that we had so large a number of vessels in ordinary, because it had been shown that they could be converted into most effective screw ships at a very moderate expense. The experiment of placing the navy agency in the hands of the commissariat had been tried to a certain extent at Hong Kong, but it had been found to produce so much confusion in the accounts, and so much disadvantage to the naval service, that he had felt himself bound by a regard to the efficiency of that service to require that it should be abandoned. With respect to the encouraging of savings banks, he must inform the hon. Member that facilities for investment had been given to our seamen twenty years ago, but it had not suited their tastes to avail themselves of it, and he regretted to say, that the sums invested hitherto had been comparatively small. He admitted the great importance of the sub

the subject. He attributed the difference between our soldiers and seamen in this respect to the difference in the mode in which they were paid. The wages of the seaman were allowed to accumulate for a long time, and he received a large sum at once when the ship was paid off at one or other of the outports, where he was subject to immense temptations to spend it prodigally. He thought it most desirable to assimilate the two services in this respect, and he trusted his hon. Friend would give him credit for a desire to introduce the change at the earliest moment at which it could be advantageously made. He did not think the present time-when they were entering different classes of men under different circumstances, and at different rates of pay-was a favourable one to make the alteration, and he could not positively say that he would propose it during the Session. He should, however, lose no time in doing so when an opportune moment arrived; for he looked upon it as of great importance, and as likely to have a very salutary moral effect upon the character of the men.

CAPTAIN SCOBELL said, on the subject of officers' ages, that you could not blame old officers for having become old. A new system was wanted, and the active list ought to be reduced by at least onehalf. At present we had officers enough for the whole navy of the world, enough for the navies of two worlds in fact. He thought it very right to have such a force as the naval coast volunteers, but felt bound to call attention to an existing impropriety in the way of raising them. We wished very wisely to say nothing and to do nothing with impressment, but according to the representations of the newspapers, the officers who went along the coast making speeches to obtain volunteers, constantly told them as an inducement, that if they entered there they would be free from impressment. That was the very worst thing they could do for the general service. He wished to know why, when these volunteers were given a bounty, none was allowed to able seamen? The sailors had never been tried under that system; but he believed that, of all bodies of men, sailors were most easily accessible by ready money. They wanted it; when he was a midshipman he recollected it himself. They did not like to come and offer themselves when they were out at elbows ;