clude he refers to what is called the collec- I should be endeavouring to unite every pertive note, which, to my mind, whatever may son in this country-hand and heart-to be my opinion of former parts of the trans-stand by an ally unjustly attacked, and to action, has put the matter on a better prevent, if possible, any further injustice basis, by maintaining and vindicating being perpetrated against her. the independent sovereignty and integrity the observation of my right hon. Friend of Turkey. Another satisfactory part of was a just one; but at any rate I hope the noble Lord's speech appeared to me that the noble Lord will take the advice to be that in which he supplied another given him by my right hon. Friend in a omission in the Speech from the Throne, previous observation-that is to say, that I mean the passage in which he referred to he will not confound electoral purification the disposition of the other Powers. I un- with Parliamentary reform or the reconderstand from his statement, that we may struction of the Commons House of Parlianow expect, if not as certain, at least as ment; and that in the Bill about to be possible, that the Emperor of Austria and the introduced, care will be taken not to give King of Prussia are concurring, or likely to to any class in this country an unequally concur, with France and England in the large share of the representation, especiviews they take on this question. That also ally if that class already possesses an unwas an important communication which I due proportion of it. In my opinion, the was glad to hear from the noble Lord. The noble Lord has hazarded a great deal in innoble Lord made a third observation equally troducing this Reform Bill; and I should important, though I cannot agree with him have thought it would have been wiser and on the conclusions which he drew from it. safer, notwithstanding the pledges which He told us that he thought it was not only the Ministers of the Crown have already not detrimental, but that it was advantage- given, if they had not proposed so exciting ous to this country and to Europe to pro- a measure as that of reform in the present tract negotiations as long as possible, if by state of affairs abroad. Moreover, I must these protracted negotiations peace could say that I have considerable doubts, and be secured, and the interests of the parties I always have entertained considerable were not in the meantime impaired. I doubts, whether further reform in the hope the noble Lord will forgive me for representation of the people is either dereminding him, in connexion with this sired, or likely to be beneficial. Nay, part of his speech, that it was while former more, I will go on and say that if you pronegotiations were going on that the Pruth pose a Reform Bill at all, you are bound was crossed, in order to obtain "a material to make good two propositions before you guarantee for peace"-a new term, I be- can expect the Parliament of this country lieve, in European diplomacy. And we to adopt it. The one is, that you do not should not shut our eyes to the fact, that make any unnecessary change in the it was while these negotiations were pro- constitution of the State, unless you are ceeding that the Principalities have been convinced that there are grievances and occupied, that contributions have been abuses which cannot be redressed without levied, and that martial law has been pro- such a change. Having established that claimed there. Now I agree with the (if you can establish it), the second proponoble Lord that negotiations should be sition is, that when you make the change continued so long as there is a chance of you propose, you must not introduce by it peace being preserved, consistently with greater evils than those that you profess the security due to Turkey. But I hope and intend to remedy. But, as I have that negotiations will not be continued if no already said, I do not wish to anticipate better protection can be secured to Turkey the discussion of this important question. than she has met with hitherto in the oc- I am sure that when the Bill is laid on the cupation of the Principalities and the dis- table of the House, it will have the conaster of Sinope. And now, Sir, I cannot sideration which its importance deserves; refrain from making a passing observation but I frankly own that I neither think with reference to the remarks which fell the time convenient for the proposition of from the noble Lord on the subject of the such a measure, nor do I think that the Reform Bill. My right hon. Friend (Mr. measure itself is at all required, for I Disraeli) pointed out to the noble Lord the doubt very much whether the constitution extreme inconvenience of discussing a of Parliament will be really improved by measure of this kind, which may give rise further tampering with the distribution of to great difference of opinion, while we the franchise, or by varying materially the VOL. CXXX. [THIRD SERIES.] H proportions in which the different interests | beyond midnight which the House had sat are now represented. during the last five years, and he found that they had sat, in 1849, 76 hours Committee appointed, "to draw up an after midnight; in 1850, 108 hours; in Address to be presented to Her Majesty 1851, 86 hours; in 1852, 61 hours; in upon the said Resolution :"-Lord Castle- 1853, 133 hours; and it should be borne rosse, Mr. Hankey, Lord John Russell, in mind that, on several occasions, they Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Vis-had sat three or four hours after midcount Palmerston, Sir James Graham, Sir night. It was scarcely necessary to cite Charles Wood, Mr. Sidney Herbert, Sir William Molesworth, The Attorney General, The Solicitor General, Sir John Young, Mr. Cardwell, the Judge Advocate, Mr. Wilson, Mr. Hayter, and Mr. Bouverie, or any Five of them. Queen's Speech referred. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, February 1, 1854. MINUTES.] NEW MEMBERS SWORN -For Clitheroe, BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-LATE SITTINGS. the practice of foreign Legislatures. Every Legislature in Europe and America had the good sense to do its business by daylight, and it did appear to him monstrous that the British House of Commons should be the only Legislature in the world which conducted its business at such very late and unseasonable hours. He knew there was a feeling out of doors regretting this, and a feeling of just surprise that so few Members in that House should support the Motions which he continually brought forward, in the hope of rectifying the evil. He wished, however, to explain what was not generally understood. It was generally imagined that he could interfere at any moment to put an end to any Motion which might be introduced after twelve o'clock at night. People out of doors were led to suppose that this was possible, from what used to take place during the time of the predecessor of the MR, BROTHERTON moved, "That if present Speaker. It was the predecessor any new business be brought on after of the present Speaker who gave him (Mr. twelve o'clock at night, and a Member Brotherton) importance, because he could rises to order, and objects to the House always catch his eye after twelve o'clock, proceeding with the debate, a division and thus he was enabled to accomplish shall, without further discussion, be imme- what he regarded as a great improvement diately taken on the question, That the in their mode of transacting business. debate be now adjourned,' unless the Mover But he enjoyed no such facilities at preof the original Motion agrees to its being sent. It was past his strength to enpostponed.' He admitted that the pro- dure the late hours, and to remain in posal was not the very best that could have the House to the close of its proceedings, been made, but, under the circumstances, it as he had been once in the habit of was the best he had any chance of carrying. doing. It was but natural to expect that He should have preferred such a Resolution whoever occupied the Chair would be disas that which he submitted, unfortunately posed to incline towards the Ministers, without success, last Session-a Resolution who did not like to be interrupted in their rendering it obligatory on the House not proceedings, and were anxious to get to sit later than twelve o'clock at night; through the business. But he had a conbut as that Motion had not found favour fident anticipation that if the House would with the House, he thought that the next adopt the Motion he had now the honour best thing would be to propose such a to submit, it would be found to work most Motion as he had now the honour to sub- beneficially. It had been said that there mit. He was sure that it would have a was no Legislature in the world which had beneficial operation. Hon. Members must so much business to do as the House of agree with him in the opinion that the Commons. He admitted it, and was conpractice of late sitting, so far from being vinced that the adoption of the present Rediscontinued, or even mitigated, seemed to solution would have the effect of facilitatbe getting worse and worse. He had re-ing their proceedings. His object was not ferred to the return of the number of hours to retard the progress of public business, but to save the time wasted in useless | duction of Bills which were never intended debates on adjournments after midnight, to be carried, and a vast loss of the public and to expedite business. In the efficient time was the consequence. There was a working of the system on Wednesdays they certain period of the Session when what was had a powerful argument in favour of the jocularly called "the slaughter of the innostep which he now recommended. It was cents" took place; but it would be far betassuredly time that something should be ter if no Bills were introduced which there done to put an end to an evil which was was not a real intention of passing. He becoming more serious each succeeding recollected the time when the interposition Session. A friend of his during the whole of his hon. Friend was almost effectual; of last Session, wishing to discharge his but things had got worse, and it would duty conscientiously, attended in that require all the youthful energy of his hon. House every day, from the time the Friend to carry his point now. No LegisSpeaker took the chair till the rising of ture in the world passed measures at so the House; but his health was so shat- late a period of the night as they did. He tered at the close of the Session, that his recollected the passing of an important Bill medical adviser had admonished him that by the Congress of the United States, in he must discontinue the practice. He which a great defect was soon detected, was anxious to do his duty to his consti- and it was attributed to the circumstance tuency, but he found it impossible, except that the Bill was passed at twelve o'clock at the risk of his life, to remain in the House at night. He hoped the House would agree night after night, till, perhaps, three or to the moderate proposition of his hon. four o'clock in the morning. The Motion Friend. which he (Mr. Brotherton) now submitted, had propriety and common sense to recommend it. Let the House try it for one Session, at all events, and if they found it did not work well, nothing could be easier than to recur to the old system. He had the strongest conviction that it would be found to operate most beneficially. The MR. W. WILLIAMS seconded the Motion. His hon. Friend had repeatedly brought this subject before the House, and year after year the evils which he pointed out had gone on increasing. It was now time that a stop should be put to them. Session after Session they found Bills brought in to amend former Bills which passed without due consideration at a late period of the night in former Sessions, and still other Bills to amend these amended Bills. consequence was, that the statute books presented a mass of confusion which no a wyer could understand, and there was scarcely a case brought before the Judges in which they did not differ in opinion. A number of Bills-some of them of great importance were brought in at a late period of the Session, and several of them passed after two o'clock, when forty Members, and often not forty Members, were present. It was most discreditable to the House to allow business to be conducted in this manner. If the private business of the country was so conducted, universal bankruptcy would be the certain consequence. A great deal of time might be economised by the introduction of a proper system. A great loss of time was caused by the intro Motion made, and Question proposed 12 o'clock at night, and a Member rises to "That if any new business be brought on after order, and objects to the House proceeding with the Debate, a division shall, without further discussion, be immediately taken on the Question, Mover of the original Motion agrees to its being That the Debate be now adjourned,' unless the postponed." SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, that the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton) had introduced the Motion as a question of hours, but it seemed to him to involve a question of months. He could not help availing himself of this opportunity of again. making a suggestion he had submitted to the noble Lord at the end of last Session, namely, whether it would not be advisable to revive the Committee which sat some few years ago to consider the forms and proceedings of the House. There was, no doubt, a good deal of force in what the hon. Member for Salford said about the hours at which the House was forced to transact business; but when it was constantly seen that when the month of June arrived, there were not ess than thirty or forty orders waiting for decision, he thought the House would agree with him that it was impossible to dispose of those orders unless they were allowed to sit up occasionally to a later hour than the hon. Member desired. The hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams) had referred to that annual abandonment of Bills known by the name of the "massacre of the innocents," but he had more to complain of than that abandonment. He complained of proportions in which the different interests | beyond.nem such a plan as would secure duri every one deemed desirable—that are now represented. easures and Bills of great importance should meet with a fair consideration at a time when every one could attend. His duties hon. Friend proposed that if any new bu under-siness-by which, he supposed, was meant have any Order of the Day" was brought on after twelve o'clock at night, any Member Now, Committee appointed, "to draw up ar Address to be presented to Her Mai upon the said Resolution :"-Lord rosse, Mr. Hankey, Lord Job Jo Mr. Chancellor of the Exc' count Palmerston, Sir Jar Charles Wood, Mr. Si William Molesworth, ral, The Solicite Young, Mr. Cr cate, Mr. W Bouverie, Queer Ho at the beginning of the might get up and have a division. But he y few days, if at all, did not propose that that division should at he would suggest whe- be final, if it was in favour of the Motion was to prevent some Member of period of the month of jority decided in favour of going on, there der the ice should not systematically being proceeded with; and thus, if a ma de at least three mcle raluable time le by no means would be be gained, blamed the caution of the other having another division. So that, if ginning of the evening occupied with ques whole benefit of which, he thought, the Motion were adopted, they might have would be reaped at the end of the Session. an hour or an hour and a half in the befrom forms which had so long been bene- with long speeches upon some topic which moble Lord in not departing unnecessarily tions, the early part of the night taken up whether the public business had not out- debate was over, they might have the disficially adhered to; but it was a question excited great interest, and then, after that grown the times at which the House sat; cussion of every Order of the Day obstructthe hon. Member, he thought it would be only be supported by a minority of 50 and so, instead of adopting the proposal of ed by a Member or Members who might better to appoint a Committee to revise the against a majority of 250. He could not whole forms of the House. At the same time he felt but think that the adoption of the Motion LORD JOHN RUSSELL felt the incon- of his hon. Friend, taken by itself, would venience to which the House was subjected, not lead to the attainment of the end he from the necessity imposed upon them of had in view. sitting to very late hours in order to carry on the business of the country. It was not, however, at all just to say that Government wished to carry on their business at a late hour. strongly the objections which had been urged by the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken (Sir J. Pakington), against the present mode of carrying on the business of the House. This had arisen from the multifarious subjects which were brought under the notice of the House, the number of which was every year increasing. That House was not like the Congress of the United States of America, which had in connexion with it a great many State Legislatures, doing, perhaps, two-thirds or three-fourths of the business which was brought before that House. It must be recollected that they had to deal, not only with the public business of this vast Empire, but also with the private business of each separate town. He thought it would be very desirable to have a Committee to consider the method of transacting business; and he thought it would be requisite to determine whether they would have separate Committees on public and on private business, or whether it would not be better to have a single Committee to deal with the whole subject. He believed that the deliberations of such a Committee would be attended with great advantage, both in the transaction of public and of private business. The fact was, that when business was brought on by the Government, and agreed to by a large majority of the House, it must be supposed that it was business which it was important to settle. Last year important measures connected with our financial arrangements, and with the government of India, were brought forward; and the House having decided in favour of those measures, it was very desirable that they should be proceeded with and passed. It would, doubtless, be more convenient to the Government if they were able to proceed with their business at a quarter past four o'clock, and to get it done by twelve o'clock. But they were prevented from doing this by the delays caused by the various questions and Motions which the forms of the House allowed hon. Members to interpose, and which frequently hindered the Government business from coming on until a late hour of the evening. He thought it was desirable that they should not decide on the single proposition of his hon. Friend, but that they should have der the present system there was such ccumulation of business towards the f the Session, that they were comither to sit to two or three o'clock orning to dispose of it, or neglect of great public importance. Nor said that there was no demand ton. The Government had in the As Speech mentioned various subjects n which they proposed to legislate during the present Session, but, nevertheless, complaints had been made that others were not included. Now, certainly it did not seem reasonable to say that the House must not sit late at night, and, on the other hand, to accuse the Government of not bringing in sufficient measures, although those that they did introduce were sufficient to occupy their time. He hoped that the hon. Member would not persist in his Motion. But if either he or the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Pakington), after consulting with the Members of the Government, would propose the appointment of a Committee in terms to which they could assent, he (Lord John Russell) would most readily agree to it, and if he were one of its Members, would give his best attention to the subject. would save a great deal of time if every debate was concluded in one night. He felt the effect of sitting up after 12 o'clock; he was not so well able to do that as he used to be, but still if the debate was to be concluded in one night he would remain up till it was finished. He did not think the appointment of a Committee at all necessary. MR. WALPOLE thought that a Committee was desirable to enable them to judge which was the best mode of proceeding they could adopt. But in the meantime he would suggest, as a means of saving much time, first, that more business should originate in the House of Lords than was now the case. If, with the exception of those measures of taxation and finance which it was the peculiar province of the House of Commons to originate, the other branch of the Legislature proceeded at an early period of the Session to the consideration of other measures, those measures would come down to the House of Commons more ripe for discussion, whilst both Houses would be employed at the same time in forwarding the public business. The second suggestion was, that the consideration of the details and principles of Bills should be kept more distinct than was at present the case. Ho would suggest that the first two hours, from five to seven o'clock, should be devoted to the former class of business, and that the debates on the principles of Bills should follow. The hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) said that the " great guns" kept back. He supposed the hon. Gentleman meant by the great guns the leaders of Government and the Opposition. He (Mr. Walpole), however, thought it a very convenient course that they should be allowed to review at the close the facts and arguments adduced in the course of the debate, so that other Members might be the better able to form an opinion on the subject under discussion. MR. HUME said, that nothing was so important as to begin well, and he was glad to see that they had begun well this Session. If they began now with the determination that July should close the Session, he felt satisfied that the business of the Session might be dealt with by that time. Allusion had been made to the Committee which sat three years ago, before which, M. Thiers had been examined as to the system in France, and other gentlemen examined as to the practice of the United States. One or two of the suggestions of that Committee had been adopted, but the rest of them had not been attended to. He proposed in that Committee, with a view to the saving of time, that no Member should be allowed to speak MR. J. E. DENISON could not concur more than an hour except the mover, but in the view taken by the hon. Member he could only get one out of the seventeen for Montrose of the Committee which sat Members of the Committee to second him. on the forms of the House a few years It was not because there were many sub- ago, for he thought it had occasioned a jects of consideration that time was lost, great improvement in their business. It bat because they were made party ques- was formerly the practice to adjourn detions-because the debates were adjourned bates to an excessive extent one upon anofrom day to day, and because the "great ther; and the public business had arrived guns" of the House, as they were called, at such a pitch that there were no less lay by to attack each other. He believed than five important subjects all under the that the best decisions of the House were consideration of the House at the same those which were arrived at at an early time, and all in process of adjourned deperiod of the evening. He thought it bates. This was not only prejudicial to |