Government to deal in a liberal and comprehensive spirit with this question.

landlord should have the right of answering vernment would not disappoint the expec him in this way-" Well, then, let the land tations of their friends. If there should be fairly and properly valued-let it be be no higher motive, he trusted that the valued, if you please, according to the Government would bear in mind how valu terms of the General Valuation Act, and I able a source the cottier population of Irewill be willing, if you can find a tenant to land was whence to raise levies in the event take it at the valued rent, after allowing of war, and that they would be induced to for the annual permanent increase of value do justice to the small cultivators of the arising from your improvements, to accept land in that country, who were now being him as a substitute for you; but I stipu- driven from its shores in hundreds. He late that all arrears of rent shall be first looked on Ireland as a country with great paid, and that when prices rise, my rent undeveloped resources, and, instead of conshall rise with them." What could be sidering the emigration going on as a rea. fairer than such an arrangement? It son for not improving the law, he thought would amount to nothing more than adopt that emigration to be deplored, and he ating the principle of corn-rents, as practised tributed it to the operation of those bad in Scotland, and sanctioned by the Tithe laws. A sense of expediency, if not of Composition and Church Temporalities justice, should be sufficient to induce the Acts. It is impossible to read the General Valuation Act without at once seeing how easily the object which all have in view, the promotion of improvement with justice to both landlords and tenants, would be secured by it. He should not ask the House to entertain his Bill in any other stage than the first reading until the Government measure had come down from the other House. Then he should be afforded an opportunity of asking them to proceed with the second reading of the Bill, or of moving that certain Amendments, in conformity with the views which he advocated, should be introduced into the measure of the Government. He should, therefore, merely ask the House to assent to the introduction of the Bill, in order that it might be printed and circulated among hon. Members, and that they thus might be enabled to consider more maturely the provisions which it contained.

MR. POLLARD-URQUIIART seconded the Motion. He said that, three or four years ago, the question involved in this Bill had been brought forward as a subject for popular agitation; but that was no longer the case, and whatever the Government might now consent to do would be a concession, not to agitation, but to reason. The Government had the opportunity of dealing with a vital and momentous question, and he trusted that it would not be thrown away upon them. Recent events in Ireland had shown that the popular party there were not opposed to the present Government. Many of them thought that the Government were prepared in a bona fide spirit to redress the grievances of which they complained, and they were inclined, therefore, to give them a fair trial. He sincerely hoped that the Go

MR. GEORGE said, he must congratu late both the House and the country upon the altered tone which had pervaded the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Kilkenny (Mr. Serjeant Shee) that evening, as compared with that by which his introduction of topics connected with the relations of landlord and tenant had last Session been characterised. The hon. and learned Member had upon that occasion- -as he had done in the speech which he has just delivered-stated that he had no intention of asking the House to assent to a single provision which could be said to have for its object the destruetion of the rights of property in Ireland. He (Mr. George) had, however, been obliged last Session to ask the hon. and learned Gentleman whether the perpetuity of tenure clause, and the compulsory valuation clause-two clauses which the hon. and learned Member had introduced into his Bill, for they were not in Mr. Sharman Crawford's measure-would not, if they had passed into law, have proved to be in their operation utterly destructive of property in Ireland and its rights? Such in his (Mr. George's) opinion would have been their tendency. He, therefore, had listened on the present occasion with some doubt and hesitation to the assertion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, that this Bill which the hon. and learned Gentleman had just introduced did not interfere with property. He most sincerely hoped that existing interests were not sought to be disturbed by that measure, and that no retrospective legislation upon the subject of the relations between landlord and tenant was contemplated by

its supporters.

measure at any future time. Until the House of Lords should have decided on the Bill under their consideration, and which had received the approval of the Government, it would be a manifest waste of time to continue any further debate on the question.

The hon. and learned to them; and under these circumstances Member had presented to the House a sad there could be no objection on the part of picture of the amount of crime and desti- the Government to the Motion that the tution which he said prevailed in Ireland, hon. and learned Gentleman should be aland which he had attributed to the absence lowed to lay his Bill on the table. But of legislation of a character similar to that the Government, in assenting to that Mowhich he has just called upon the House tion, did not pledge themselves in any way to sanction. He (Mr. George) was, how-to give any facilities or any support to the ever, happy to be enabled to state that the condition of Ireland had of late become greatly altered for the better. Population and labour now bore a more just proportion to one another in that country than had hitherto been the case. The employer had to seek for the labourer, not the labourer for the employer, and the rate of wages MR. NAPIER said, he thought the had been considerably increased. It was course proposed by the hon. and learned to these circumstances, and to the more Gentleman very inconvenient, of laying abundant harvests, that, in his opinion, the a Bill on the table of that House, which improvement which now manifested itself was not to be proceeded with until a Comin every quarter of the island was to be mittee of the House of Lords should come attributed. He should like to see this to a decision with respect to another Bill. better state of things allowed to develope He considered that it would have been itself gradually, and deemed it unwise, by better to have waited until the other Bill, too much hot-bed legislation, to endeavour with such modifications as the House of to push too far the increasing prosperity, Lords might think necessary, should come to which it afforded him so much gratifica- down from that House. Besides that obtion to be enabled to bear evidence. Injection, the amendments of the hon. and those cases in which compensation could be made to the tenant without prejudice to existing contracts he should have no objection to see it granted; but it was his opinion that in general, to leave the landlord and the tenants to regulate their own affairs was a mode of proceeding preferable to the enactment of any law upon the subject. At all events he trusted that no measure affecting different interests would be passed so far as Ireland was concerned, which hon. Members would not be prepared to advocate for England.

COLONEL GREVILLE said, he could assure the hon. Member who had just sat down that he should certainly not have given his support to the measure of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kilkenny had he been of opinion that it was calculated to operate injuriously upon the rights of property; and he should be ready to give his favourable consideration to any alterations in that measure which hon. Members might deem it desirable to introduce.

SIR JOHN YOUNG said, that the hon. and learned Gentleman who had brought the subject under their consideration had announced his intention not to proceed with his measure until the decision of the House of Lords should be taken on a Bill upon the same subject which had been submitted

learned Gentleman were negatived in a Select Committee of the House of Commons last year. He was very anxious that this question should be settled this year, for the uncertainty which prevailed tended very much to the depreciation of property in Ireland, and he knew of instances in which sales had been prevented in consequence of that uncertainty. In the conduct of the measures of which he had charge during the last Session, he was bound to say, that those who more particularly represented the interests of the tenantry had offered no obstruction of which he had reason to complain, but had assisted him very fairly. The House would recollect that he proposed three Bills. There was also a fourth Bill-the Land Improvement Bill-to enable a tenant for life, and persons having a limited interest, to do with private money what they would have been able to do out of a public loan. The three Bills to which he referred, were the Landlord and Tenant Consolidation Bill, the Leasing Powers Bill, and the Tenant Compensation Bill. The latter Bill contained a clause relating to draining, subsoiling, and other matters which were omitted from the Bill which passed the House. The Select Committee were of opinion, that all that kind of im provement should be done under express contract, and he felt bound to surrender

his private opinion to men of greater expe- | did not serve the tenant, because tenants rience. Another decision of the Committee were flying, and their lands lying waste. made his Tenant Compensation Bill to a The result, therefore, of the legislation of certain degree nugatory, because it cut out this wise and politic nation on this subject improvements in the soil, and he, therefore, was the greatest political error that could thought the better course was to take the possibly be committed that of keeping fixture clause and transfer it to the Land- the land waste, and giving away their lord and Tenant Bill, and he must say, he labour. Land and labour were the great considered that clause one of very great elements of national prosperity, and yet benefit to the tenant, for it covered cases we had a magnificent country, one-third of of building, gates, &c., on the soil, and which they kept waste. Within the last did as much with regard to existing im- seven years they had got rid of between provements as could be done consistently 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 of the populawith the decision of the Select Committee. tion of Ireland; and although they might With regard to the future, the Leasing not be rated any higher than mere cattle, Powers Bill, passed last year, enabled all and speaking in the sense of the merest persons having landed, estates in hand to political economy, they were the most make beneficial leases, and contracts for valuable and costly articles that could be all classes of improvements on the soil and produced; and the Americans well knew in the soil. With respect to the Compen- this, for they valued every adult emigrant sation Bill, when it was in the House last who landed on their shores at 1,000 dollars, year, he felt it to be his duty to take an or 2081. At this rate, the value of those independent part, from a sincere and ear- who had left Ireland for America was nest desire to have this question settled; 400,000,000.-the value of the fee simple and he could assure the House he would of the whole rental of Ireland at forty continue to apply his mind and judgment years' purchase. If that were true, it was to it, to the best of his ability. But he clear that they were worth as much to ourhoped that the House would endeavour this selves, if we only knew how to make them Session to bring the question to a conclu- valuable to us. We might, for instance, sion; and he would earnestly advise those make them till the lands of Ireland instead who were honestly anxious for the improve- of those of America; but we should not ment of Ireland, that there must be a little succeed if we drove them away, injuring "give and take" in this matter; and the prosperity of the country, and perilling, whatever law might ultimately be passed, to a certain extent, the progress of Eurothat it should be accepted in a friendly pean liberty. Every nation that pursued spirit by those who were the subjects of it. this policy evidenced symptoms of great Some concession ought to be made on both national decay. What had they been sides, and they ought to take what was doing for the last two centuries but making practicable and what was agreed to by all laws against tenants? They had conparties; but he did hope to see such a Bill structed 260 statutes, all of which were passed as would do substantial good to inimical to the occupier of the land. This İreland, and he would advise all parties to question would never be settled until Paraccept a moderate and a practical settle- liament considered what were the rights ment of a question which had created a given to the landlords of Ireland by the good deal of angry dissension, and, to a common law of the country. There was certain extent, disturbed the welfare and no other country in the world where these prosperity of the country. things could be done. They could not be done in Belgium, France, Italy, Sardinia, or anywhere else. Let the Government inform themselves upon what terms land was held in foreign countries, and then a basis might be found for a plain and satisfactory settlement of the question. He did not mean a blue book," but a plain and intelligible digest of the laws of other countries; for until this was done, the existing laws would remain a stumblingblock in the way of the advancement of Ireland.

MR. M MAHON said, he should not have ventured to address the House on the present occasion had it not been for an observation of his hon. colleague (Mr. George) with respect to the effect of Mr. Sharman Crawford's clause in conferring perpetuity of tenure. He (Mr. M Mahon) felt convinced that that clause was essential to the security of property. Nothing could be worse, in his opinion, than the operation of the existing laws. They did not answer the landlord's purpose, for the landlord did not escape from difficulties; and they

MR. ROCHE begged to offer his thanks.

one

to the hon. and learned Member for Kil- he had lately had the honour to hold in kenny (Mr. Serjeant Shee) on the spirit and that country, and the interest which he temper he had evinced in bringing this must naturally feel in everything conquestion under the consideration of the nected with its welfare, would be held to House, and in attempting to do that which justify him in coming forward on this occahad been recommended by the Committee sion. It appeared to him that an inwhich sat on this subject. The right hon. quiry into the working of the national and learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier) had system of education in Ireland, if it had also boldly, courageously, and ably entered not been necessary before, had been renupon the consideration of the question-a dered absolutely indispensable by the circircumstance which would always greatly cumstances which had occurred last year, redound to his credit. It appeared that and which had resulted in the retirement this Bill was not to be proceeded with fur- from the Board of Commissioners not only ther until the other measure came down of two eminent members of the Irish bench from the House of Lords. He thought -men distinguished not more by their that a very good arrangement, but he legal ability than by their judgment and would beg to press on the Government the moderation-but also by the secession of importance of not allowing this subject to a most reverend Prelate, the Archbishop rest or be delayed in the other House. of Dublin, who was one of the original This was a question of vital importance to Commissioners, and who had been for the Ireland. He believed a great deal of the twenty years during which the system had emigration which had gone on there was existed one of its firm, conscientious, and caused by the unsatisfactory state of the energetic supporters. It appeared to him law of landlord and tenant. But, putting (the Earl of Eglinton) that an inquiry was aside the two questions of the relations of also rendered necessary by the innovations landlord and tenant and emigration, which which had taken place in the system of were but cause and effect, their real, social, instruction, in consequence of the construcand practical business in that House, with tion-in his opinion an erroneous respect to Ireland, was the applying them- which had been placed upon one of the selves to the final settlement of this vexed principal rules of the institution. When a question. noble Earl behind him (the Earl of Clancarty) brought this subject before their Lordships last year, he (the Earl of Eglinton) said that, although he so far differed from him as to give the system his qualified approval, yet that it was his opinion that an inquiry into its working was necessary, and he urged his noble Friend to move for a Committee on the subject. He need hardly say that the opinion he then expressed had been greatly strengthened by the circumstances to which he had alluded; and he believed that that opinion would be shared in by most of their Lordships. He (the Earl of Eglinton) begged to assure their Lordships that he approached this subject in no spirit of hostility; nay, he believed that the qualified support which he had given to the system had disappointed many of those with whom he was politically allied, and whose high character, piety, and patriotism would render him most anxious to please them if possible. When his noble Friend who was at the head of the late Administration (the Earl of Derby) entrusted him with the government of Ireland, he imposed no conditions upon him; he treated him with that generous confidence which his noble Friend always placed in those he trusted, and which

Leave given.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Serjeant Shee and Mr. Pollard-Urquhart. The House adjourned at half after Eleven o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Friday, February 17, 1854. MINUTES.] Took the Oaths.-The Lord Harris. PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Law of Landlord and Tenant (Ireland); Powers of Leasing (Ireland); Tenants' Improvements Compensation (Ireland).

NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND). THE EARL OF EGLINTON, in rising to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the practical working of the system of National Education in Ireland, said, that he was fully aware of the importance of the subject which he had undertaken to bring under their Lordships' attention, and, indeed, he could not but think that it would have been brought before the House with greater propriety, and certainly with greater ability, by some of the noble Lords personally connected with Ireland. He trusted, however, that the position which

contributed, among other of his great quali- | stating why the Government considered it ties, to make those on that side of the House necessary to take the educational funds look up to him as their political leader, not from the Kildare Place Society, in whose only with pride but with affection. The noble hands it had previously been, his noble Earl in no way fettered his judgment, but Friend adverted to the report of the Comurged him to give his earnest attention to mittee of 1828, in which was given as this important subject of national education, the basis of the scheme projected by the and to see whether it might not be pos- Government "combined literary and sepasible to devise some modifications by which rate religious education;" but when that the objections of the Protestants of Ire- draught was submitted by Mr. Stanley land might be done away with, without to the intended Commissioners (considered creating ill-feeling among the Roman Ca- respectively as fair representatives of each tholics. He (the Earl of Eglinton) thought communion) it appeared that some of them, his noble Friend would admit that he had before they accepted the office, objected to spared neither time nor trouble in doing administer a system which was designed so. If he came to an erroneous conclusion, to exclude all religious teaching from the which he was far from admitting, it was combined education; that, accordingly, an error of judgment and from no want of after mature deliberation between Mr. sufficient attention or consideration. After Stanley and the several members of the that investigation he told his noble Friend, Board as to the possibility of introducing while still at the head of the Government, into the united education such scriptural that although he saw much to lament and teaching as might involve no matter of much to disapprove of in the system, he controversy among Christians, the first still thought that, under all the peculiar draught of the letter was altered, with the circumstances of Ireland, it was, perhaps, full consent of the Government and the the one best suited to the wants of the Commissioners, by describing the system country; that he could make no sugges- to be established as one for "combined tion which would, in his opinion, satisfy moral and literary, and separate religious the Protestants, without having the effect instruction," and by adding to that descripof driving away the Roman Catholics from tion the following proviso:the schools; and that he could not be a party to any proceeding which might result in throwing on the world about 400.000 children, without even the means of secular education.

With the permission of their Lordships he would briefly trace the progress of the religious part of the system;-for, with regard to the excellence of the secular education given in these schools, there had never been the least difference of opinion. He felt it necessary briefly to call their Lordships' attention to the history of this system, which might not be familiar to all of them. In 1831, when the Government of the day came to the determination of withdrawing the grant from the Kildare Place Society, and effecting an impor ant change in the system of education, which theretofore had existed in Ireland, it was well known that his noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) then Mr. Stanley, was the chief Secretary for Ireland, and that the letter which he addressed to the Duke of Leinster, the intended President of the Board of Education, had always been considered as the charter of the system. In the first draught of that letter, after adverting to the consideration which had induced the Government to effect this change, and after

"It is not designed to exclude from the list of books for the combined instruction such portions of sacred history, or of religious or moral teaching, as may be approved by the Board." The Commissioners then consisted of the Duke of Leinster, the Archbishop of Dublin, the late Roman Catholic Archbishop Murray, Mr. Blake, Mr. Sadleir, Mr. Carlisle, and Mr. Holmes. As regarded religion, the Board consisted of three Episcopalians, two Roman Catholics, a Presbyterian, and a Unitarian. These gentlemen

entirely agreeing with the views of his noble Friend and the Government, that it was desirable that, if possible, some combined religious instruction should be given

agreed upon recommending some works, which they hoped would give sound religious education, without raising the prejudices of the Roman Catholics, or incurring the dread of the Protestants. These books at first consisted of selections from the Holy Scriptures, and a book of Sacred Poetry, to which was afterwards added a volume on the Evidences of Christianity. These books were, as was necessary, unanimously approved of by the Board, and formed part of the system as it was first established. No patron, however, was obliged to make use of them in his school,