a similar tampering as that now proposed If that were true, what chance had Eng- | effects of free trade upon British shipping lish shipowners or shipbuilders, and the had been made apparent long since, when various trades connected with shipping, against foreigners? But if the Government were to proceed in the course pointed out, they would also be bound to admit foreign seamen as well as foreign shipping; for it was utterly impossible that the British merchant could compete with the foreign shipowner, unless he was relieved of the burdens now imposed upon him in the shape of interdiction of the employment of foreign seamen. By a summary of the expenses of a foreign and a British ship of 500 tons each, having the same number of officers and nearly the same number of men, the following results were apparent : Bremen ......22 27 12 32 18 0 39 5 0 ... ... ... Per Year. £786 0 0 669 0 0 640 12 0 331 10 0 395 0 0 "Whereas, for some years past, and more especially since the laying a duty upon coals brought into the river Thames, there has been observed a mere than ordinary decay in building ships in Yarmouth, Ipswich, &c., &c., where many stout England, and particularly in Newcastle, Hull, ships were yearly built in the coal and other trade, which were of great use to His Majesty in time of war, and a nursery for able seamen; but by the discouragement that trade hath ever since been under, occasioned chiefly by the freedom wherewith foreign ships and vessels, bought and brought into this kingdom, have engaged in the coal and other inland trade, equal to that of English-built ships, the merchants, owners, and others have not been able to build as formerly, which hath caused many English shipwrights, caulkers, and seamen to seek their employments abroad, whereby the building trade is not only lost in several places, and in others very much decayed, but also the importations of timber, plank, hemp, pitch, tar, iron, masts, canvas, and other commodities used in building and fitting out ships, are greatly lessened, to the apparent prejudice of his Majesty's customs, the loss of a considerable employment for shipping, and consequently of all other trades depending thereon, to the great advantage of foreign nations-Be it enacted," &c. If things were as this recital described on that occasion, he (the Earl of Hardwicke) saw no reason to suppose that they would be otherwise on the present occasion, or that they should not return to that deplorable state. He should only say that if the country was determined to have an efficient and an economical navy, and moderate naval estimates, it would take care that the merchant navy of England should never want a monopoly of that trade which was necessary to maintain a sufficient sup The 471 0 0" Their Lordships should remember that the military and the commercial navy of this country were one and the same that the mercantile navy, in short, was the marine militia of the State, wherefrom the resources of the military navy were drawn. Therefore, the support of that navy should not be neglected, for this country could not have a large body of men drilled to both services, as the Russians had; and if it were to have a Navy, it should also have a nursery for seamen. He (the Earl of Hardwicke) repudiated the doctrine of Sir James Stirling, that British merchant seamen were of no value, as a senseless ab-ply of seamen for a time of war. surdity, which he wondered any man of mind could entertain for a moment. There was, in fact, no means of manning the EARL GREY said, that, although on military navy of this country, in time of the part of the Government he should not emergency, except through the commer- oppose the Motion, he was bound to state cial navy. It might be true that not one- that he did not at all think inquiry into tenth of the military navy at present afloat the subject necessary. He did not, he rewas drawn, periodically, from the commer-peated, consider any fresh inquiry into the cial navy; but that arose from the circum-Navigation Laws requisite, on the one stance that sailors in the service of Her hand; but, on the other, he was free to Majesty were so well cared for, that they admit that he saw no possible objection did not willingly leave it. The moment, however, there was a demand for recruits, to the merchant service the country would be obliged to recur at once. It was curious, at this time, to observe that the noble Earl concluded by moving for a Select Committee on the Navigation Laws. to it. If it was not necessary, it was attended with no inconvenience; on the contrary, he thought the more light was thrown upon the subject, the more decided would be the conclusion come to, that - these laws were not only inconvenient, but | President of the Board of Trade, when positively detrimental to the interests of during the course of last year he was waitthose classes connected with the shipping ed upon by various deputations, who sought trade. As there was to be an inquiry, and to be informed whether the Government as the whole of this question was to be intended to bring in any measure with rebrought before them, he saw no reason why ference to those laws. And his noble he should enter into any argument upon Friend (the Earl of Clarendon) in answer it. He was perfectly willing to submit to to them, stated that there was no intention any prejudices which might at present ex- then on the part of the Government to ist upon this subject, convinced that time propose any change in the Navigation would prove him right; for, indeed, he did Laws. His answer was most strictly cornot fear that their Lordships would be led rect: there was no intention of proposing away by the opinion that free trade was a any measure in the last Session of Parliafolly and a delusion, and that Adam Smith, ment. He was satisfied, however, that and all the other illustrious statesmen who his noble Friend had never let fall a word followed his doctrines and maintained his on that occasion in favour of the existing opinions, were under similar delusions as system; but, on the contrary, he felt satisto the effects of free trade. Still less did fied his noble Friend was then decidedly he think it necessary to follow the noble in favour of such change. The next charge Lord into all his details respecting the was, the publication in America of copies French navigation laws, although he did of the correspondence of the noble Lord not think it would be difficult to point out at the head of the Foreign Office with the many false inferences which he had drawn, American Minister in this country, on the and many erroneous convictions into which subject of the intentions of the Governhe had fallen; but he did not think it was ment with regard to the Navigation Laws. the proper time. He thought it would be The noble Earl stated the Government had more fitting to do so when the whole ques-informed that Minister that a change would tion came before them, and then, when be made though they had not the power that time arrived, he had the utmost con- to make it unless with the consent of Parfidence they should be able to prove to de- liament. But nothing was more usual monstration that British commerce and the among nations having constitutional Goshipping interest had deeply suffered from vernments than undertakings to submit the complicated, inconsistent, and incon- certain measures to their respective Legisvenient system of restriction which now latures. It was the course adopted in the existed, restricting the right of using for- great majority of commercial cases. eign ships. He (Earl Grey) would not such cases a Government enters into contouch on the argument of the noble Earl fidential communication with foreign Powas respected the colonies, further than to ers to ascertain their views; and then subsay, that when the noble Earl said it mits their own project founded upon them would be a disadvantage to the West to Parliament. The noble Earl did not Indian colonies to have a repeal of the state that Her Majesty's Government had Navigation Laws, the noble Earl was en- entered into a treaty on these conditions; tirely and altogether at issue with the he only complained that on the eve of Her West Indians themselves. As far as pub- Majesty's Speech to Parliament, the Forlic documents were conclusive upon that eign Secretary had informed the American question, they were, on the contrary, all Minister that he believed a mutual relaxain favour of the repeal; and he believed tion of the restriction that existed on the that there was not a House of Assembly shipping of both countries would be very in the West Indies that had not petitioned advantageous, and that the Government Her Majesty to relieve those colonies from were prepared to propose it. The noble the operation of the Navigation Laws. He Earl had complained of the manner in (Earl Grey) would merely make one or which the Committee of the other House two further remarks upon some observa- on the subject of the Navigation Laws had tions on the first part of the speech of the had been selected; but he (Earl Grey) did noble Earl. A charge had been brought not think it either a usual or a convenient against Her Majesty's Government by the course to discuss in that House the way in noble Earl, that they had changed their which the affairs of the other branch of opinion on the subject of the Navigation the Legislature were conducted. The inLaws; and he had founded his charge on quiry, however, before the Committee, he the reported reply of his noble Friend the (Earl Grey) could state to their Lordships present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, when was carried on in the strictest spirit of jus In tice, and with the most scrupulous care and attention. The noble Earl had described the statement of Mr. Porter, on the subject of the Navigation Laws, as a falsity; but their Lordships would find that, upon strict examination, the allegation of falseness would vanish altogether. The figures, according to the noble Earl, were incorrectly stated, and the numbers were wrongly given; and the noble Earl had also said that a mistake was made by that gentleman in classifying some portions of the shipping trade as protected, whilst other portions of it were not protected. In that statement he (Earl Grey) was inclined to agree. As far as the figures were in question all was correct: there were no blunders. Mr. Porter stated the case in one way, the noble Earl stated it in another; but he (Earl Grey) did not, therefore, admit the charge of falseness. The noble Earl objected that a ship making ten voyages was set down as ten ships; but he (Earl Grey) contended that a ship making ten voyages was practically ten ships as far as the tonnage was concerned, and must be reckoned as such. To proceed on any other principle would be altogether a most fallacious mode of acting. With respect to the proposed inquiry, he was sanguine in believing that the result of it would be to afford still stronger and more decisive evidence in favour of the expediency of the alteration of those laws, which he hoped their Lordships, before the conclusion of the Session, would see effected. The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH rejoiced that the noble Lord was willing to grant the Committee; but when he found the noble Earl intended to proceed to legislate with respect to the Navigation Laws without waiting for the report of the Committee, he saw that the Government did not intend that the granting of the Committee should be of much use to those who asked for it. He inferred from the twofold statement of the noble Earl, that it was the intention of the Government to introduce a measure on the subject in the course of the Session, and that it was his opinion that the existing law was injurious to the mercantile interests and commerce of the country-that, in his opinion, the changes which the noble Earl would introduce would be advantageous to commerce. If such should be shown to be the result of the proposed alterations, he (the Earl of Ellenborough) would be most willing to acquiesce in them. But he trusted their Lordships would not agree to any change whatever in the Navigation Laws, unless they were satisfied the result of the change would be to increase the navigation and tonnage and the number of seamen employed by this country. Whenever the proposed alteration was brought before their Lordships he should come to the consideration of the question with that principle fixed in his mind. He concurred in the opinion expressed on this subject by his noble Friend (the Earl of Hardwicke), though he arrived at the same conclusion from different premises. For his noble Friend considered that in all matters of commerce protection should be the rule, and free trade the exception; whereas he (the Earl of Ellenborough), imbued from a very early period of his life with the doctrines of Adam Smith, was of opinion that free trade should be the rule, and protection the exception; but the Navigation Laws appeared to him, of all others, to be the case that formed the exception. It had been observed that the West India interest was in favour of, while the shipowners of this country were adverse to, an alteration of those laws. He was not surprised at such being the case. The West India interest was not called upon to look to the maritime interest of this country; all that they looked to was the mode of sending their own produce cheaply to the market; and, therefore, they might very reasonably join in the demand for the abolition of laws which they believed to stand in their way. They believed they suffered from those laws, and they therefore protest.. ed against them; but the shipowners here apprehended not only injury to themselves, but danger to the whole shipping interests of the empire, from such a course as was now contemplated; and their opinion was surely of some value. There were other points which had been referred to, and to which he hoped the inquiry would be extended; and if, under the form of his noble Friend's Motion, the inquiry could not be so extended, he should be disposed to add a few words to it to effect that purpose. His noble Friend had relied on the official statement of the tonnage of shipping; but he feared that no satisfactory reliance could be laid on that statement, which was so confused by the repetition of voyages inserted in it that the amount of tonnage given in it did not show the quantity of shipping. It would be absolutely necessary to have those accounts framed on a totally different principle. There was another point to that nothing could be more absurd than to HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, February 25, 1848. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.—1o Appeals in Criminal Cases. 2o Landed Property (Ireland). Reported.-Consolidated Fund (8,000,000l.). Sessions Bill.—By Mr. Grogan, from Wexford, for En-loans for the purpose of improvements of couragement to Schools in Connexion with the Church the land and to advance certain railways. Education Society (Ireland).-By Mr. Cockburn, from Oxford, for Sanitary Regulations.-By Mr. Sharman Southampton, for Abolition of Grand Juries.-By Sir Now, advances for the improvements of ment of the Naval and Military Expenditure.-By Mr. Pole Carew, from Cornwall, against a Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—By Sir Robert Ferguson, from Londonderry, against the Passengers' Bill.-By Mr. Moody, from Wellington (Somerset), and by Mr. Osman Ricardo, from Worcester, for an Alteration of the Poor Law.-By Mr. Charles Howard, from the Clerks, Masters, and Matrons of several Workhouses, for a Superannuation Fund for Poor Law Officers.-By Lord James Stuart, from Irvine, for an Extension of the System of Postage.-By Sir H. F. Davie, from Haddington, and by Lord J. Stuart, from Ayr, for an Alteration of the Law of Prisons (Scotland). Abolition of the Punishment of Death.-By Mr. Cobden, Clay, and other hon. Members, from several Places, for Referring War Disputes to Arbitration. LOANS AND GRANTS TO IRELAND. SIR H. WILLOUGHBY wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "the loan of eight millions of stock having produced in 1847 the sum of 7,963,6747., whether any and what portion of such money is in the Exchequer, or was in the Exchequer on the 1st of January, 1848; and whether there is any objection to place on the table of the House an account of the expenditure of the said loan? Also, whether the 420,000l. of the China money detained at the Cape may be taken as a deduction from the 1,100,000l. expended in carrying on the Kafir war?" still in the Exchequer, something between 900,000l. and 1,000,0007., which was applicable, in one way or another, to Irish purposes. To the second question he thought he had given an answer the other day. When he made his financial statement last year, there remained the sum which he mentioned of the China money applicable to that year. He had fully expected to have drawn that sum in the course of the last summer from the commissariat chest; but the commissariat's department had had such heavy drains upon it, that he was unable. He proposed to take a vote that night to repay the commissariat's chest the advances it had made for the extraordinary expense of the Kafir war; and the Chinese ransom would be available for ways and means this year. INSURRECTION IN PARIS. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, in answer to Mr. Hindley: The latest intelligence which I have received from Paris is dated half-past six o'clock on the evening before last. These despatches inform me of the retirement of M. Guizot, and that M. Molé had been appointed to form a new Government; later than that I have no official information. INCOME AND EXPENDITURE. The Order of the Day for the House to go into a Committee of Supply having been read, On the Motion that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER could not give a precise answer in figures to the questions of the hon. Gentleman; but he thought he could give an answer which would probably be satisfactory to him and to the House upon the first point. The amount of eight millions, or rather the net amount produced, was, ac- MR. HUME was very sorry that he felt cording to the provisions of the Act of Par-himself called upon by an imperative sense liament, carried to the credit of the Con- of duty to interfere in any way with the solidated Fund; the practice of late years proceedings of Her Majesty's Government, having been not to keep open several dif- in obtaining those supplies which they ferent accounts, but to place the whole sum thought requisite to carry on the services received under one head. He stated about of the country; but he appealed to the this time last year that the amount re- House whether, when they agreed to adquired in one way or another for the relief vance 3,200,000l. towards the expenses of service, and for the improvement of Ireland, the Army and Navy, it was not distinctly was ten millions. He stated then that understood that they were not to be called about two millions had been advanced, and upon to vote any estimates until the Comhe proposed to take a loan of eight mil-mittee to be named on the subject had relions for the purpose of future advances. That sum was to be applicable to the relief fund in the course of last summer, and for ported. It would be recollected that when the vote for the excess of the Navy was proposed the other night, it was pronounced |