From the prices at which contracts have been taken for the works already in progress, there can be no doubt with care and attention that a considerable saving will take place on the original estimate that was sanctioned by the first Committee of both Houses."

But what was the fact? By the last return there was already expended on ventilation and warming 96,3261. 13s. 3d., and they had no security against being saddled with another 90,000l. for the same object.

But this sum of 96,3271.

Barry himself, was six years. In 1848 1841, wrote a letter on the subject of the country had expended no less than ventilation and fire-proofing of the Houses, 1,401,0367., as appeared by an estimate in which he said— which was acknowledged to be incomplete, and supposed to be imaginary; and yet the building was as far from being inhabited as in 1836. In fact, the New Houses of Parliament were considered among the architects to be a sort of Mrs. Harris, whose real existence was problematical. He would now call the attention of the House to some of the charges which he had selected from the returns before Parliament. The first item was a charge of 22,000l. for change of stone. Now, in 1839 a roving Commission of geologists did not include fire-proofing; for that item was appointed, who went through Eng- there was an additional charge of 15,6007.; land and Wales to examine the different then there was another charge under qualities of stone. On the 16th of March, the miscellaneous works, under the gene1839, that Commission made its report. ral authority of the architect, amounting in the whole to 21,000l. He thought The expense of that tour of inspection, the House would feel it its duty to inmixed up with some other items, was 4,9021. 3s. 10d. It was natural to suppose quire what was the nature of this genethat, having the benefit of this Commission, ral authority of Mr. Barry to put his hand a stone would have been selected such as into the public pocket; and he trusted was applicable to all purposes. But this was not the case; the stone originally adopted was not at all suited to endure the weather, and consequently a charge of no less than 22,000l. had been incurred for changing it. Then there was an item of 48,4871. 11s. 9d. for carving stone-an arrangement authorised by the Woods and

Forests in 1841. He should have

some

1844.

the House would also consider it its duty to put an end to this lavish expenditure of the public money. There had been at least 100,000l. expended under this general authority of the Woods and Forests, and of the architect. It was necessary the House should be informed of the reason that had been given for the architect not going on faster with thing to say on this subject of arrange the works. It appeared to have originatment by the Woods and Forests by and by. ed entirely in the unfortunate difference Another most expensive item was that of that had arisen between Dr. Reid and ventilating, warming, and fire-proofing the Mr. Barry. This difference, so far as he New Houses. It would be in the recollec- could trace it, occurred about the year tion of the House, that in 1841 a CommitIt was impossible for him to enter tee inquired into these subjects, and the into the nature of the quarrel; but the estimated expense laid before the Commit- House should be informed that the quartee, for ventilating, warming, and fire-rel was made a subject of inquiry before proofing the New Houses, was 86,000l. a Select Committee in 1846, which ComDr. Reid proposed to erect a tower, as a mittee on the 5th of August of that year portion of the works necessary to ventila- reportedtion. That might be supposed to cause some increased delay in the time for completing the building; but when Lord Palmerston, in Committee, asked Mr. Barry whether it would cause any delay, Mr. Barry answered, "Not the least." Preparations were then taken for ventilating and warming the building. One would have hoped that this expense would have been all. Lord Besborough, when at the head of the Woods and Forests, and who appeared to be the only commissioner who was at all able to resist the fascinations of Mr. Barry, on the 27th of August, VOL. XCVI. Third

Series f

"That the practical effect of the differences being of the House of Lords for nine months, and tween those gentlemen was a delay in the buildgenerally delayed the construction of the whole building. This occasioned great inconvenience and expense, especially as regarded the hiring of

Committee-rooms.'

When it was considered that the total loss incurred in the hiring of houses was not less than 200,000l., he thought it would be owing to the patience of the House alone that it did not step in and dismiss both architect and ventilator. Dr. Reid, in answer to a question before the Committec, said

T

Ever since 1846 this unfortunate squabble
had been going on between these two
gentlemen; and he hoped the noble Lord
at the head of the Woods and Forests
(Lord Morpeth) would consider it his duty
to inquire into these differences. If he
did not, then it would be right for Parlia-
ment to step in and decide that the quarrel
should not any longer continue. Unless
this were speedily done, he was confident
the country would ultimately lose upwards
of half a million of money.
The hired
houses cost not less than 203,0521.; the
allowance for rent to officials was 36,5451.
17s. 10d.; and yet they were nevertheless
very uncomfortably provided for. The
Speaker was obliged to live in a most in-
convenient house; and Mr. Ley their Clerk,
whom he saw sitting at the table, and
whose health was positively affected for
want of a proper house to live in, had
been peculiarly ill-treated, for he (Mr. Os-
borne) found this very remarkable fact in
connexion with that gentleman's case:
On the 7th of July, 1842, the Speaker
called the attention of Lord Lincoln to the
propriety of building a house for the clerk.
The report stated-

"That such a residence may be provided for at an additional expense of not more than 2,600.; and as the present Clerk receives 500l. a year for house-rent, which payment would cease, on a house being built, your Committee consider it would be no less a measure of conomy than public convenience to authorise the building of the house as proposed by Mr. Barry."

judging of the merits of these frescoes; but he thought it would be difficult to get any future Commission of Fine Arts to approve of those which had as yet been exhibited in the House of Lords. The Fine Arts Commission that now existed-whoever might have appointed it-was evidently careless of the public money. Not, however, being competent himself to speak om this matter, he would quote the opinion of one who was quite as good a judge on the subject as Mr. Barry. A Committee of the House of Lords sat in 1844, of which Lord Sudeley was a Member. In answer to some observation made by Mr. Barry, as to the necessity of ventilation, and respecting the introduction of frescoes, Lord Sudeley said

"If the buildings of the Houses of Parliament are meant for the fine arts, Mr. Barry may be correct in his observation; but I consider the Houses of Parliament built for no such object; that the fine arts ought to be called in to embellish, but that no necessary architectural arrangement should be sacrificed for their display. It is nine years since we made our report; from These plans ought to have been settled years ago. that hour till lately I have never seen the plan."

• ...

What had been the consequence? The country had been put to a very extraordinary expense; but what was or would be the exact amount it was impossible to ascertain. There was no getting at the doings of this Fine Arts Commission. As a proof that there had never been any control exercised over Mr. Barry since the lamented death of Lord Besborough, that Gentleman, in reply to questions put to him before the Lords' Committee, said, that the alterations made during the nine That was five years and a half ago. Mr. years were upon his own judgment, without Barry said that the house would be ready any authority; that they were described to in eighteen months; and that he only no person, neither to the Commissioners of waited for an order to finish it. Now, Woods and Forests, nor to the Govern5001. a year was allowed to Mr. Ley for ment; that he had delivered no plans to rent. This sum had been paid for seven the Government, showing the alterations. years, which made the whole amount paid He further stated that the Commissioners on that gentleman's account 3,500l.; and of Fine Arts ordered alterations to be yet, in 1842, it was stated that the house made in the designs, to make room for could have been built for 2,6007. Why" larger pictures.' In the Committee of was not the necessary order issued by the the House of Commons, on the 4th of noble Lord the Member for Falkirk (Lord July, 1844, Mr. Barry was asked— Lincoln), who in 1842, was the First Com"Have the Woods and Forests ever called upon missioner of Woods and Forests? Had you for any plans ?-Never. Can you tell what that been done the country would have the estimate is likely to be for the whole building, been saved a great expense, and Mr. Ley when completed?-I am unable to guess even at would have been spared a considerable what the ultimate cost of the building will be.” portion of inconvenience. There was a If this matter was not attended with a charge of 5081. for frescoes in the House very serious outlay, it would, indeed, be of Lords. Now, he was not a man of perfectly ridiculous. Judging from the taste, and, therefore, was not capable of answers given by Mr. Barry, might he not

́sury Minute of 1839 directed "25,000l. to | tainly could give no such guarantee. His be paid to the architect, in conformity hon. Friend had been rather severe upon with the agreement for the original de- him (Lord Morpeth), and had said that if sign;" but to this was appended the fol- he, as head of his department, did not inlowing note, "It is but right to state that terfere in this matter, his office ought to be this has never been acceded to by Mr. abolished. Now he would state to his hon. Barry." Now, he (Mr. Osborne) was Friend, that since he had had the honour prepared to assert that 25,000l. was the of holding a place in that department, he maximum agreed to be paid for Mr. Barry's had made it his particular business to inservices. He had in his hand Lord quire and ascertain what was the underBesborough's evidence given before the standing of their duty entertained by that Committee in July, 1844, which was to the department with respect to the construcfollowing effect :tion of the two Houses of Parliament, as it was understood by his predecessors, by the late Earl of Besborough, by the Earl of Lincoln, Lord Canning, and by those gentlemen who permaThe House would find, also, from a corre-nently retained their seats at the board. spondence which took place between the All those Gentlemen conceived that they Commissioners of Woods and Forests and acted ministerially, as a subordinate dethe architect, that on the 22nd of April, 1839, Mr. Barry himself assented to receive this amount of remuneration. He said, in a letter of that date

"I think Mr. Barry has no claim beyond 25,000l. for the work he has to complete under the plan approved of by the conjoint Committee

of both Houses of Parliament."

"I make no doubt that the proposed amount, although far short of the customary remuneration which has hitherto been paid to architects for extensive public works, is considered by the Board to be liberal, and therefore, with this impression, I have no wish to do otherwise than bow to its de

ision."

partment of the Treasury, and that as such it was not their duty as a department to settle what annual amount of expenditure was to be incurred, any more than it was their duty to settle the details of the architectural arrangements. He must say, without disparagement to his Colleagues or himself, that he thought it very lucky that such was not the case; for if they had been called upon to interfere in He had brought these matters before the the details of the architectural plans, they House, hoping that they would be taken would probably have made but very indifup by other hon. Members, and not suffered ferent work of it. But the duty of this to fall still-born to the ground; for he department was to exercise a control simithought that Parliament might be more lar to that of an accountant-to see that usefully employed in controlling public ex- the sums annually voted by Parliament penditure, and legislating in accordance were applied to the service for which they with the spirit of the age, than in founding were voted, after having obtained the magnificent palaces of Gothic architecture. sanction of the Treasury-to see that the VISCOUNT MORPETH must preface the contracts were entered into with proper few observations he had to offer to the and responsible persons, and upon proper House by stating that he really thought terms to examine all the accounts-to his hon. Friend had entirely mis-stated the see that the contracts were faithfully peranswers given the other night from the formed according to the rates of measureTreasury benches, by the noble Lord atment, and to provide for the bills being the head of the Treasury and himself. In the first place, he thought he might safely appeal to the House whether there was anything like a sneer in the answer which he gave. The answer given by his noble Friend could not be taken as indicating that the Commissioners of Woods and Forests or the Treasury would exercise no control over the expenditure that was annually incurred in the construction of the two Houses of Parliament; but when he was asked if he would guarantee that the sum to be spent upon the entire works when finished should not amount to more than 1,400,000l., he stated that he cer

paid accordingly. That office, he believed, was a very laborious one, and he was convinced that it was discharged with great zeal and ability by the officers of the department; and he might especially mention the name of a gentleman who, for a long period of the years, had been especially called upon to transact this business-he alluded to Mr. Milne. Further, it was certainly the duty of the Woods and Forests to report any deviation from the original design to the Treasury, for their sanction or disallowance; and this rule, he believed, had been regularly acted upon by that department. But when his hon.

Friend threw blame on the department | already completed in the House of Lords. of Woods and Forests, and said he wished They were not said to be instances of perthat a Parliamentary Commission had been fection in that branch of art; but they were appointed, he must remind him that one of very creditable as specimens of a mode of the chief sources of expense had been, that decorative art new to this country; and he this building had been carried on under the believed that more practised judges would special direction and superintendence of amply confirm the verdict which he now Committees of the two Houses of Parlia- with great diffidence ventured to give in ment, which had sat on the subject, con- their behalf. Of course it was impossible ducted their investigations, and made their for him to deny that this had been a most reports. He wished to state to the House expensive building, and that it had conwhat, up to the present day, the actual siderably exceeded the original sum conexpenditure had been, and what was the templated. But he would fairly put it to excess of expenditure over the original es- the House whether anything else could timate. The original estimate was 707,000l. have been expected under the circumThe sum advanced upon the works and stances of the building. The original debuildings, including the architect's com- sign of a building of such vast magnitude mission, and salaries of clerks, up to the and such various uses could necessarily present time, was 808,000l., a sum cer- only include the leading principles of the tainly exceeding the orginal estimate; but arrangement and the general character of of that sum of 808,9001. a sum of 307,000l. the style of architecture to be employed. had been paid for the improvement of the Well, then, owing to the shortness of time river walls, for the warming and ventilating given to the architect for making the arrangements, for official residences, sew- original design, and the imperfect informaers, decorations, extra foundations, and va- tion which he possessed, it must necesrious modifications, alterations and addi- sarily have included many defects. Now, tions suggested by Committees of Parlia- these defects could only be corrected as ment, and the decorations of the House of the architect became familiar with the reLords, all of which formed no part of the quirements made upon him, and after he original estimate; so that of the 808,000l., had time to consider and mature his deonly 430,000l. had been expended on the tails. The modifications which had been original plans. The hon. Gentleman had required had been endless, proceeding from said that a different style of architecture Committees of that House, and from the ought to have been selected; of course heads of departments connected with the there would be a variety of opinions as public service. Since the first stone was to the original style of architecture to be laid, the increase in the business of the selected. It must be remembered that country had been immense, and required the style selected was a highly decorated proportionate accommodation. He need only one, and no doubt was an expensive one; but instance that splendid corridor where their as such it was adopted and sanctioned. Committees on private business assembled; He would not now enter into a discussion and in which it must be admitted that on the Commission of the Fine Arts. Her whatever its cost of construction, it bore Majesty's present Government were not no proportion to the cost of the transacresponsible for the appointment of that tions there carried on. Then among other Commission; but he must say that he did things which the architect could not have not think the country at large would at all been prepared for, were the warming and sympathise with the attempt of his hon. ventilating arrangements. These were not Friend to throw discredit upon the efforts considered in the original estimates. that had been made for giving encourage- hon. Friend had spoken with great dement to the rising talent of the country. He, ference of the late Lord Besborough; but of course, agreed with his hon. Friend in he remembered that at the request spethinking that any material arrangement, cially made by Lord Besborough, Dr. Reid or special accommodation in the Houses of was employed for the purpose of providing Parliament, ought not to be postponed for the ventilating and warming machinery, the purpose of mere decoration; but where and for that Mr. Barry could not be rethey had bare walls, he thought the coun- sponsible. Nor did he think that any try would be pleased to see them covered part of the Executive Government could with the designs and finished pictures of have taken upon itself to put an end our rising artists. He thought his hon. to the arrangement. He might say Friend was unduly severe on the frescoes that, fortified by their happy experi

His