Page images
PDF
EPUB

country, by receiving an ecclesiastical dignitary as the representative of Rome in this country.

Duke should frame a Bill in the form which he had suggested. He should have a great objection to the reception of an ecclesiastic from the Court of Rome as ambassador to this country, and he did think that it would have been advisable to have limited the prerogative of the Crown. But upon a very full consideration of what would be the result of adding this Amendment to the noble Earl's (the Earl of Eglintoun), he could not give his voice in its favour, for he thought it would have a most ungracious appearance.

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said, he was prepared to adopt the clause as suggested by the noble Duke; but what effect that alteration would have upon the whole Bill he could not say, and should require time to be advised upon the precise legal bearing of the words. Much had been stated about Prussia; and he believed that the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had correctly stated what were the relations between Prussia and Rome; but the noble Lord had not stated what he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) considered bore a remarkable relation to the matter in question. In Prussia there existed a code of laws regulating everything appertaining to the Catholic faith; it was established in the year 1791, and in that code there is no sort of exclusion which prevented the Court of Prussia from receiving an ecclesiastic as an ambassador, although practically such an exclusion did operate, as up to the present time no such envoy or legate had been permitted.

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said, that he had already stated he should require time to know the precise legal bearing of the words. He did not say that its adoption would answer the purpose of the Amendment which had been moved. He fancied that he could see from the manner of noble Lords opposite, that they were of opinion that he had agreed to the proposition in order to influence the vote of the noble Duke; but such was not the fact. It might be in the recollection of the House, that at the very commencement of the discussion he had declared his willingness to adopt any alteration or any suggestion which he believed did not interfere with the principle of the Bill, and gave a greater security to the interests of Protestantism.

Their Lordships divided:-Content 67; Not-content 64: Majority for the Amendment 3.

Clause as amended agreed to.

The DUKE of WELLINGTON then moved the following as a declaratory Amendment:

"Whereas it has been enacted and declared in the provisions of various ancient laws of this realm, that the Sovereign thereof, acting by and with the advice and under the authority of both Houses of Parliament, is the sole and supreme head and governor of all matters ecclesiastical and civil within this realm, or elsewhere, the dominions of the Crown of England; and the same Acts contain provisions, having for their objects duct, and the relations of the subjects of this to control, regulate, and restrain the acts, conrealm with foreign Powers upon the said matters: and whereas it is essential to the welfare of these realms that the said provisions as to the Crown and Government thereof, should be invariably remove any doubts which may exist as to the maintained, and it is expedient, nevertheless, to competence of Her Majesty, Her heirs and successors, to establish diplomatic relations with the Sovereign of the Roman State-"

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE saw no objection to the addition of this clause, and would offer no opposition to its insertion in the Bill.

The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH said, that as the noble Marquess had signified his intention of substituting, instead of the words in the Bill, other words to enable Her Majesty to enter into "diplomatic relations" generally, he wished to know how that alteration would have the same effect as the proposed Amendment, to prevent the Crown from receiving an ecclesiastic from the Court of Rome for the purpose of diplomatic communication? Their Lordships were willing to a certain extent to relieve the prerogative of the Crown, which for a long period of time had been unable to appoint diplomatic agents in respect to the Roman States; but they were not so familiarised with those new Whig doctrines of prerogative as to go so far as to forget "Provided always, and be enacted, that it shall the whole spirit of the Protestant legisla- not be lawful for Her Majesty to receive any such tion of this country, and to enable any fu- Ambassador, Envoy Extraordinary, Minister ture Ministry to injure, perhaps, the Pro-Plenipotentiary, or other diplomatic agent, until testant Church, or, at all events, to give doth not claim, but distinctly disavows, any temthe Court of Rome shall have declared that it great offence to all Protestants in this poral or civil jurisdiction, power, superiority, or

Amendment agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.

LORD REDESDALE moved the addition of the following Clause::

pre-eminence, directly or indirectly, within this calculated to defeat the object of the Bill, he felt bound to oppose it.

realm."

He said that he believed there was a

large body of Roman Catholics in this country who were taught to look to the power of Rome in this country rather than to the legitimate power and authority of the Government of this country. The object of his Amendment was to apply a remedy to this state of things. In his opinion, it was highly desirable that before a measure like that now under consideration was carried into effect, they should have given to them, on the part of the sovereign authority at Rome, a distinct pledge and assurance that the Papal authority in Rome sought to exercise no temporal power or authority whatsoever in this country. He begged to disclaim any hostile feeling towards his Roman Catholic fellow-subjects in proposing this Amendment. On the contrary, he thought that the Amendment which he now proposed would increase the efficiency of the Bill.

The EARL of SHREWSBURY: My Lords, though I am quite willing to admit that the noble Lord does not bring forward this Amendment in an invidious spirit, yet I am sure it is altogether unnecessary. The noble Lord himself says that we have solemnly abjured these doctrines and opinions; why, my Lords, there is not a Catholic in the three kingdoms who is not equally willing to abjure them in the most solemn and emphatic manner. And should they ever be reasserted by Rome--mind you, my Lords, the Church never has asserted them-I am sure we should find the same means and the same spirit to resist them, as had our ancestors in the time of Elizabeth. Having then, as I conceive, a much stronger guarantee against the influence of such doctrines and opinions than any repudiation of them on the part of Rome-a repudiation which might be made by one Pope, and withdrawn by another, I do think the noble Lord would act much more wisely by allowing things to remain as they are, and by resting his security on the good sense and the good feeling of mankind.

The BISHOP of SALISBURY said, that as the House had agreed to the principle of the Bill, he did not think that they would allow its objects to be indirectly defeated; and as it had been stated that this Amendment would have that effect, he would not support it.

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE could not consent to the insertion of this clause. The effect of the addition of these words would be to defeat the object of the Bill altogether. He thought that the assertion of any such claim would be absurd, and that its renunciation was altogether unnecessary. Why, if such a claim to temporal power in these realms was set up by the Pope, of what use would it be, or what effect would it have? It was well known that for a long period the Kings of England set up a claim to be styled Kings of France, as well as of England. Even more than that, the Kings of England styled themselves Kings of France and England when negotiating treaties with French Monarchs, who were Kings of France de facto. He was sure that it would amuse the House to be reminded that when James II. was living at St. Germains, he styled himself King of France. The Kings of England had not been called upon to give up that claim. It was an absurd one. It rested on no sound foundation, and the assump-claration of the noble Earl (the Earl of tion of it did no harm. The claim of the Pope to exercise temporal power in this country was just as unfounded, and any apprehensions from its exercise were quite absurd. As to the formal renunciation of it, that was a demand with which, according to the custom of the Roman State, the Pope could not comply. Seeing that no advantage could arise from this Amendment, but that, on the contrary, it was

[blocks in formation]

LORD STANLEY could not agree with the objections that had been offered against the present Amendment. He did not think that there was anything inconsistent or unreasonable in asking the Sovereign Power of Rome to give an assurance of this kind, inasmuch as the Pope was now about to enter into diplomatic relations with this country. Under those circumstances he did not think it unreasonable that the Pope should be asked to formally abandon any claim to the exercise of temporal power in those kingdoms. However, after the de

Shrewsbury), whose high honour no one would doubt, he would be inclined to leave the matter to the good sense of the people themselves. He (Lord Stanley) could not agree that the objection of his noble Friend (Lord Redesdale) was a mere shadowy objection; and if his noble Friend thought fit to press his Amendment to a division, he (Lord Stanley) would vote with him. However, as it seemed to be thought that this

2 G

{COMMONS} Amendment, if carried, would create a practical difficulty in the way of the working of the Bill, he would advise his noble Friend to withdraw it.

Amendment withdrawn.

The DUKE of RICHMOND moved the insertion of a clause, providing that no Ambassador, Envoy, or Minister from Rome should be allowed to perform any acts in this country which it would not be lawful for a British subject to perform.

LORD CAMPBELL assured the noble Duke that the Amendment was quite unnecessary, because the assumption of any such right to perform acts not lawful for British subjects to perform, was already amply and sufficiently provided against. Amendment withdrawn.

All the clauses having been disposed of, the preamble was then agreed to, and the House resumed.

House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, February 18, 1848.

MINUTES.] NEW WRIT.-For Devizes, v. William Heald
Ludlow Bruges, Esq., Chiltern Hundreds.

NEW MEMBER SWORN.-For Salop (Northern Division),

John Whitehall Dodd, Esq.

PUBLIC BILLS.-- 3o and passed: New Zealand Government.

PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Bramstone, and other hon. Members, from several places, against the Jewish Disabilities Bill.-By Mr. Grantley Berkeley, and other hon. Members, from several places, in favour of the

Jewish Disabilities Bill.-By Mr. Henley, from Oxford, and by Colonel Mure, from Paisley, for the Better Obser

vance of the Lord's Day.-By Sir William Verner, from Orange Lodges, against the Diplomatic Relations with the Court of Rome.-By Mr. Henley, from Oxford, complaining of the Conduct of the Catholic Clergy (Ireland). By the Earl of Arundel and Surrey, from York, and by Mr. Grantley Berkeley, from Nailsworth, in favour of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.-By Mr.

the Rajah of Sattara.-By Mr. Hume, from Glasgow, for

the West of Scotland Auxiliary Association, for Inquiry

of Occupiers of Tenements.-By Mr. Fordyce, from

London, for the Production of Papers respecting the Leeds and Carlisle Railway Bills (1846). From Physi cians and Surgeons of the Cork Dispensary, for Redress to Members of the Medical Profession (Ireland).- By Mr. Thomas Baring, and other hon. Members, from various places, for Retrenchment in the Naval and Military Ex penditure.-By Mr. Hudson, from Sunderland, and other places, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.-By Mr. Hume, from New South Wales, for the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.-By Mr. Wakley, from a Meeting held at the Queen's Concert Rooms, Theobald's Road, for Alteration of the Poor Law.-By Mr. Thomas Baring, from Clerks, Masters, and Matrons of various Work houses, for a Superannuation Fund for Poor Law Officers. -By Mr. George Thompson, and other hon. Members, from various places, for the Abolition of Punishment of Death.-By Mr. Alexander Lockhart, from the Parish Schoolmasters of Selkirk, for Ameliorating their Condi

[blocks in formation]

THE BUDGET-FINANCIAL STATEMENT. House in Committee of Ways and Means. LORD J. RUSSELL: Sir, I feel my Wakley, from Middlesex, for Inquiry into the Case of strength so unequal to discharge adequateConsideration of the West India Colonies.-By Mr. Head-ly the important task which I have underlam, from a great number of places, for the Repeal of taken, that I believe I shall best perform Duty on Attorneys' Certificates. By Mr. M'Gregor, from my duty by laying before the House an respecting the Excise Laws.-By Mr. Wakley, from St. outline of the financial policy of the GoLuke's, for the Equalisation of the Land Tax.-By Lord vernment, leaving to future discussion the J. Stuart, from Cardiff, for the Rating of Owners instead greater part of the arguments which may Aberdeen, for the Revision of the Stamp Duties. By be required to enforce that policy and to Sir Thomas Birch, and other hon. Members, from several recommend the propositions which I shall places, for the Reduction of Duty on Tea.-By Viscount submit for the adoption of the Committee. for the Repeal of the Duty on Windows.-By Mr. Foley, I shall therefore, Sir, proceed at once by and other hon. Members, from numerous Orders of reminding the House that the year which Odd Fellows, for the Extension of the Benefit Societies has passed over our heads, or I should perRobertson, for Inquiry respecting the Deccan Prize haps say, the period of the last eighteen Money.-By Mr. George Hamilton, from Kildare, and months, has been one which, excepting cases of foreign war or domestic insurrection, is without a parallel, I think, in the history of this country. The changes and vicissitudes of prices-the difficulties of commerce-the panic which more than

Duncan, and other hon. Members, from various places,

Act. By Sir Harry Verney, from Mrs. Jemina Vans

other places, and by Sir William Verney, from Armagh, for Encouragement to Schools in Connexion with the

Church Education Society (Ireland).-By Mr. Baines, and other hon. Members, from several places, for Sanitary Regulations.—By Mr. Sharman Crawford, from Kildare,

for the Alteration of the Law of Landlord and Tenant

(Ireland).—From William Clarke, 29, Coleman Street,

employed in Manchester, full time, were 21,698; on the 2nd November, they were reduced to 14,861; and on February 8, 1848, they were again 32,146. Those employed on short time on the 16th of February, 1847, were 13,404; on the 2nd of November they were 14,578; and on February 8, this year, they were only 4,901. The unemployed on February 16th, 1847, were 5,600; on November 2 they had risen to the enormous number of 11,616; and on the 8th of February, this year, they had fallen to 7,543. I think, Sir, the House must agree that it was impossible such changes could take place, such distress be felt, and the revenue of the Excise not be very much affected by those changes and that state of distress. But, Sir, the commercial vicissitudes to which I have alluded must also to a very considerable degree have affected the Customs. When in April, and again in October, there was so great a degree of discredit-when that discredit amounted to panic, and no one was sure what bills would be paidwhen persons most solvent in their circumstances, and the largest houses, if not in danger of falling, were at least obliged to submit to the greatest sacrifices-it was impossible that there should not be a great embarrassment of trade, and that merchants should not give, as they did give, orders that the goods which they had ordered to be imported should not be sent to this country, but that bullion, or some other mode of payment, should be adopted instead. And therefore, whilst the trade of the country was very considerably paralysed, the revenue must have suffered severely from that state of things. Sir, I will allude here to the statement of Mr. Huskisson, in July, 1817, after the country had had the misfortune of a deficient harvest. He said

once prevailed-the extreme distress of a part of the United Kingdom-the extraordinary efforts which were made to relieve that distress-altogether affected the state of this country to a degree that I believe it would not be easy to find an example of such distress in our history. To give the Committee some notion of the very great vicissitudes we have gone through, I will refer to the changes in the price of wheat, the changes in the rate of commercial discounts by the Bank of England, and to the changes in the amount of bullion held by that establishment. In the first week of September, 1846, the average price of wheat was 49s.; the price in January, 1847, was 70s.; and in the week ending May 29, 1847, the price of wheat was 102s. 3d. On the 18th of September following it had again fallen to 49s. 6d., being only sixpence difference from the price of the preceding September, and more than 100 per cent difference from the price at which it stood in the previous May. The rate of discount by the Bank of England-I mean the minimum rate of discount charged by the Bank of England -in November, 1846, was 3 per cent. In April, 1847, it had been raised to 5 per cent; in October, the lowest rate of interest charged by the Bank of England was 8 per cent; and in January, 1848, it was again 4 per cent. The amount of bullion on the 10th of October, 1846, held by the Bank of England, was 15,078,1357.; on the 23rd of October, 1847, it was 7,865,4451.; and again on the 5th of February, 1848, it was 13,821,7541. Now, Sir, I have referred to these changes not with a view at present of speaking either of the causes which produced them, or the remedies which from time to time have been proposed in Parliament for some of the aggravated symptoms of these calamities, but merely for the purpose of showing to "This was the situation of the country, particuthe House how great have been the changes larly since the failure of the last harvest. His only in our condition, and how much such vicis- surprise indeed was, that the revenue had not situdes must have affected the revenue of fallen-off more. A falling-off of 10 per cent on a revenue of 50 millions was not so wonderful when the country. Sir, it is obvious in the first a scarcity of provisions happened take place, and place that there could not be so great when there was a want of full employment for changes in the price of corn without very our population. He repeated, that he was surmuch affecting the consumption of manu-prised the deficiency had not been much greater." factured goods, and likewise of exciseable commodities, both by the agricultural and the commercial classes. This is shown by another return, exhibiting the number of hands employed in Manchester on full time and on short time, and unemployed, at the different periods to which I have alluded. On the 16th of February, 1847, those

This was a deficiency of 10 per cent on á revenue of 50,000,000l., which Mr. Huskisson declared in a time of scarcity was not a deficiency at which we should be surprised, or at which he thought at that time any would wonder. Having stated these general circumstances, to the details of which I will not further allude, because

there have been frequent discussions in not now enter-it is obvious that, as a rethis House on the matter, while the alarm venue measure, it has very considerably and distress which prevailed must be fresh increased the public income, without imin the recollection of every hon. Member, posing any additional taxation upon the I will now go on to state what I think it people of this country. But I will now is due to the present Government that I proceed to refer to a paper which is in the should state, especially as some gross ex- hands of the House-the balance-sheet for aggerations have been spread among the this year, which was presented on the 3rd public on the subject. The right hon. of February. From that balance-sheet it Gentleman who held the office of Chan- appears that there is an excess of expendicellor of the Exchequer in the late Govern- ture over income of 2,956,6831.; but with ment, before he went out of office, made a regard to that excess, I have to state that, financial statement which was marked by among the sums which are entered in this the talent and clearness which distin- account on the side of expenditure, is a guish all his financial statements, but which considerable portion of the amount which of course applied only to the year to which was granted to relieve the distress that he was then referring. That right hon. existed in Ireland-a sum amounting to Gentleman did not, of course, state, in sub- 1,525,000l. I find also that there has mitting to the House the estimates for the been reckoned among the receipts of year for which he was providing, that the year 450,000l. for the remaining China there would be an increase in some of the money, which, instead of being received in items of expenditure in the ensuing year this country, was stopped at the Cape of -an increase which happened to be very Good Hope, and transferred to the military considerable. For instance, the right hon. chest of the colony for the purposes of the Gentleman only took into his account the Caffre war. Taking off, therefore, these military estimates for three quarters of a two sumss-the amount for the relief of year, in consequence of a change having Irish distress, which is not reckoned part been made in the mode of keeping the ac- of the ordinary expenditure of the year, counts of that department; and the burden and the China money, which though estiof several sums which had been voted by mated was not received the real excess Parliament in the nature of compensation of expenditure will be 981,6831. Sir, I for the repeal of the corn laws fell upon the will now state the estimate with regard to Exchequer in the ensuing year. In the the different sources of revenue made by year 1847-1848 there was an increase in my right hon. Friend in his budget last the estimates, as compared with 1846-year, and the amount which it is estimated 1847, of 932,7001.; but the amount of may be derived from those sources during services unprovided for in 1846-1847, the present year. Of course I am not able which fell into the last year, was to give an exact statement of those 628,500l.; so that the actual increase amounts; I can only state, as nearly as made in the estimates by the present Government amounted, not to 932,700l., but to 304,2001. In the year before last the present Government made an alteration in the sugar duties, from which a very considerable increase in the amount of revenue derived from sugar has resulted. In 1845 the revenue from sugar was 3,574,000l.; in 1846 it was 3,873,000l.; and in 1847 it was 4,414,000l.; showing an increase of revenue from sugar in 1847, as compared to 1845, of 840,000l., and as compared to 1846 of 541,0007. So far, therefore, are the present Government responsible, either with regard to an increase in the estimates on the one hand, or with respect to a decrease of the revenue on the other. Whatever objections may be urged, either on moral or political grounds, against the change which was made in the sugar duties-objections into which I will

can now be estimated, the sums which will probably be received under the various heads up to the 5th of April, 1848. The Customs, which were estimated at 20,000,000l., are now expected to produce the sum of 19,774,7607. The receipts under the head of Excise were estimated by my right hon. Friend at 13,700,0007.; they are now estimated at 13,340,0001. The revenue from stamp duties was estimated at 7,500,000l.; it is now estimated at 7,150,000l. The taxes were estimated at 4,270,000l.; it is now estimated that they will produce 4,340,000l. The property-tax was estimated at 5,300,000l.; it is now caculated that it will produce 5,450,000%. The anticipated revenue from the Post Office was taken at 845,0007.; it is now estimated that it will be 923,000l. The Crown lands were taken at 120,0007.; they will only produce

« EelmineJätka »