had power or could call upon the priest to | reflecting people of this country and of the assist in bringing the offenders to justice? whole world would be that there was a Were the priests to be called upon and stain of moral culpability resting upon bound under penalty to discover the offen- them, and that they were guilty of the ders? He wished to know, was it so? neglect of an imperative duty who had the For, if it were not, he thought it would be power of censuring and condemning. With very difficult for the law to be enforced these observations he would pass from that with proper effect. He did not allude to part of the subject. It would be necessary the knowledge obtained in confession, but for him, before going into the merits of to the knowledge acquired in their general the Bill itself, to advert to a question which intercourse with the people. He regretted had been, he thought, unnecessarily introto say that in some papers, which he sup- duced into the debate. He meant the posed to be the organs of the priests, it allusion to the apparent inconsistency of was said that the people would not and those Members of that or the other House ought not to obey the Act-that they ought of Parliament who gave their assent to not to become informers, or assist under the present Bill, but refused it to the Act all circumstances to apprehend the parties introduced by the Government in 1846. to an outrage; so that unless the priests Without discussing the merits of the forwere made amenable, this clause would mer Bill, or the propriety of the course be very inoperative. The noble Lord then pursued-without stating whether it on the cross-benches had instituted a were or were not an error of judgmentcomparison between the present Act and the noble Lord would permit him to point the Arms Bill of a former Session; but he out to him the difference between the cir(Lord Beaumont) thought there was a great cumstances of the two cases. On the improvement, in the absence of that portion present occasion the Parliament was called of the former Bill which compelled the together in the month of November, for people to come and get their arms marked the purpose of providing a remedy for the in open court, before the bench of magis- disturbed state of Ireland; and they did trates. But he did not intend to enter into not separate and they entered upon no the details of the Act. He thought it far subordinate business until the Government too weak to meet the circumstances of the measure for the protection of life and procase. But as the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-perty, for the application of an immediate land seemed to think it would be sufficient, he (Lord Beaumont) would support it, without attempting to make any alteration in it.

LORD STANLEY was glad he had given way to the noble Lord who had just sat down, in whose observations he entirely concurred, and thought they did him great honour. They had come, too, with more force from that noble Lord, than they would have come from him. The noble Lord (Lord Farnham) who had previously spoken, had introduced his remarks with his usual good feeling, and, far from attributing to the whole body of the Roman Catholic clergy the atrocious conduct of some of their body, he had restricted his remarks to the conduct of individuals. But he (Lord Stanley) fully concurred in opinion with the noble Lord who had just sat down (Lord Beaumont), that, considering the intimate connexion which subsisted between the highest and the lowest ranks of the Catholic clergy, so long as such conduct as had been exhibited and commented upon remained unrebuked, uncensured, and uncondemned by the heads of that body, so long the opinions of the

remedy to meet the demands of a pressing and extraordinary emergency, had been considered. He begged to be allowed to contrast that state of things with the course which had been adopted in 1846. He (Lord Stanley) and many Members of the other House with him, thought that the Government of that day were not desirous of passing the measure which they then introduced. The present Parliament had been summoned to meet in November. They were about to separate in December, after having disposed of the measure laid before them. In 1846 it had been said, in the Speech from the Throne, that

"I have observed with deep regret the very frequent instances in which the crime of deliberate assassination has been of late committed in Ireland. It will be your duty to consider whether any measures can be devised calculated to give increased protection to life, and to bring to justice the perpetrators of so dreadful a crime." So that in the voice proceeding from the Throne in 1846, it was recommended that the immediate attention of Parliament should be directed to a state of things which the noble Earl told them was not less alarming than the present. But was

it made the business of the Session? Had | country. They had a universal combina all other business been abstained from? tion for the commission of murders-murIn February the recommendation from the ders of individuals of the highest character Throne had been acted upon, and a mea--and those murders celebrated by bonsure was passed, after considerable delibe- fires throughout the land. So universal ration, through that House. On the 13th was the knowledge throughout the country of March it was sent down to the other that these murders were about to be comHouse of Parliament. But that was the mitted, that in a distant market town the time when the question of free trade was announcement of the actual commission of occupying entire attention, and when the a crime preceded by three hours the time Government was intending to make a per- of its actual perpetration. Now, the quesmanent alteration in the laws regulating tion before their Lordships was, would the the introduction of foreign corn. He measure of Her Majesty's Government put (Lord Stanley) thought with others that an end to this dreadful state of matters? the introduction of corn was a question of The first provision in the Bill was that on less pressing emergency than the protec- which the Government mainly relied, and tion of human life; and yet the measure which gave to the Lord Lieutenant powers which had been recommended in the on proclamation to prohibit, within a forQueen's Speech, and which was sent down bidden district, the possession of arms, exto the other House on the 13th of March, cept in dwelling-houses; and next, by a was appointed to be read a second time on second proclamation, to prohibit arms to the 10th of August. [Earl GREY here all, except some specified persons. Now, made a remark.] He begged pardon. He supposing they succeeded within a given was mistaking the measure for the Arms district in calling in all the arms that at (Ireland) Bill. But it was not until June present were in the hands of the peasan-until the Corn Bill had come for discus- try. Did they believe that by the mere sion to their Lordships' House-that the withdrawal of the firearms they would be Bill was discussed in the House of Com- successful in putting down either the crime mons. The noble Earl would have done itself, or still more the excitement to crime, well had he adopted the tone used by a in the organised conspiracy from which it right hon. Baronet in another place, who proceeded? They would no doubt cripple had said that they should not act in the the hand that executed, but they would spirit of recrimination upon the past, but not reach the heads that plotted, or the should adopt such measures as the present conspiracy that provided the assassin-the circumstances required. He (Lord Stan- agency that issued the commands, or the ley) concurred with the noble Earl opposite tools ever ready to see those commands in thinking that the Bill should pass with- obeyed. They might to a certain extent out delay, and that it was for Her Majes-diminish the danger; but was it firearms ty's Government to be satisfied as to its sufficiency or insufficiency. But he could not nevertheless give a silent vote upon it, nor avoid stating his opinion that he would be astonished if it were found sufficient; because he thought the Bill was insufficient, and not at all calculated to cope with the principal part of the evil. They had been told by the noble Marquess of the perpetration of the most appalling murders; that there was a regularly organised conspiracy through various parts of Ireland -a conspiracy for the destruction of life and property, and for the destruction of humble industry. His noble Friend who had spoken from his (Lord Stanley's) side of the House, had told them of assassination committees meeting in various districts of Ireland, and, in terms that might well excite their astonishment, they were told that money was subscribed for the murder of inoffensive parties in that

only that were the deadly weapons of murder? Every ditch and every road afforded ready materials for murder. One of the most frightful cases of murder he had ever heard of was one in which a stone was so deeply indented in the skull of the victim that the medical man found it impossible to remove it. Such were the kinds of crime which this Bill did not attempt to prevent. Though he did not lay much stress on the benefit to be derived from the specific system of passports in Ireland, he must say, it was notorious that the majority of crimes were committed, not by persons residing on the spot, but by strangers brought from a distance under a solemn vow to murder any individual that might be pointed out to them on receiving the reward of a few paltry shillings. Though, however, he did not rely very strongly on the passport system, he thought it might usefully prevent

the influx of strangers into the disturbed the escape of offenders, a whole populadistricts; aud it would no doubt be of in- tion would appear to join in the pursuit, finite importance if strangers coming into and by running mix themselves with them, the proclaimed districts were to be appre- and thereby balk the police, who were unhended by the authorities. He found, able to identify and apprehend the ofhowever, no such provision in the Bill be- fenders. This provision, therefore, would fore the House. With respect to the pro- be ineffectual unless there was an inclinavision, that after the first proclamation of tion to join in the pursuit, and then it the Lord Lieutenant, with certain excep- would be unnecessary. There was another tions, no person was to carry or have in provision which was not in the original the district arms" elsewhere than in his Bill, and had not been proposed by Her or her own dwelling-house, he really Majesty's Government, but had been introwished to know whether the intention of duced in the other House by an indepenthese words was to limit the possession of dent Member. He meant the penalty imarms to persons being householders? Did posed upon accessaries after the fact. they enable lodgers to have arms, or only He wished to be informed what it was those who had houses to defend? Then that constituted accessaries after the fact. there was a provision that the Lord Lieu- Suppose a warrant were issued against an tenant might issue a second proclamation, individual sworn to have committed a murrequiring every person, with certain excep- der; the person against whom the warrant tions, not only not to carry arms out of his was taken out would immediately become house, but to surrender the arms alto- an object of general sympathy; nine cabins gether; and there was a power given to out of ten in the county would assist him; the Lord Lieutenant to direct search war- he would be concealed and harboured and rants for the seizure of concealed arms. supported. Suppose that this party kept This power was limited to a time subse-out of the way, or suppose he were taken quent to the issue of the second proclama

tion

any

"That from and after the day named in such last mentioned notice, it shall be lawful for the Lord Lieutenant, &c., to direct search in any county, &c., named in any such last mentioned notice, at any time while such first mentioned proclamation shall be in force, &c."

and brought to trial, but notwithstanding a moral conviction of his guilt, from a deficiency of evidence, or any other cause, he escaped; he (Lord Stanley wished to know whether, under the operation of this clause, or of the law, any penalty would attach to the persons who might have harboured or concealed him? whether, if a person, He could not comprehend this; and he known to have committed a murder, was thought there would be a difficulty in carry- brought to trial and acquitted, any penalty ing out the intentions of the Act. There would attach to those who had harboured was a provision in the Bill, which he re- or concealed him, because they were not joiced to see, by which power was given accesaries after the fact, not having harto justices and constables to call upon per-boured a murderer? Knowing the extent sons within proclaimed districts to join in of sympathy which prevailed in Ireland the pursuit and apprehension of offenders; and any person refusing or neglecting to join in such pursuit would be guilty of a misdemeanor, and be liable to imprisonment for two years. He (Lord Stanley) apprehended that magistrates might call upon any person to assist in executing the law at present under the common law of England, and that a refusal or neglect would be an offence against the law. As far as he could understand, the object of the Bill was to alter the existing law by affixing to the offence the penalty of two years' imprisonment with hard labour. He could not conceal from himself that there was a very general feeling prevailing in Ireland not to join in the pursuit of offenders, or to aid the law; and he had heard that, for the purpose of furthering

towards persons guilty of the most heinous crimes, he thought it right to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to this point. His great objection to this Bill was, that it fell short altogether of the evil; it was directed to a very small part of it; it was intended to mitigate the symptoms of the disease, not to eradicate the disease itself. After arms had been taken from the murderers, the organisers and contrivers of the murders would remain untouched, whilst stones, and hammers, and blocks of wood, would do the work of pistols and guns; the monster evil of Ireland would still remain to be grappled with. The noble Marquess had expressed a confidence in the good feeling of the people of Ireland in the cause of justice; and he (Lord Stanley) knew there

order. He considered that the Bill now the more rigorous part of the Act; and before the House would tend to produce the Lord Lieutenant would doubtless exersuch an effect. The Bill must undoubtedly cise that power. The power to carry arms be regarded as a measure for repressing the would be extremely restricted. This would outward manifestation of the wicked spirit have a direct and powerful effect in checkto which he had referred, and not for cor- ing the commission of offences. Under the recting it. Upon one subject he entirely present law the police might hear the sound agreed with the noble Earl (Earl Fitzwil- of firearms in the distance; when they arliam), who had addressed their Lordships rived at the spot from whence the sound in the course of the discussion. He thought proceeded, they had no power to interfere; it would be highly injurious to have mixed the men brandished their arms in defiance, up with this measure one for improving the and it was found impossible for the police general and social condition of Ireland. to do their duty. When the permission to The first essential to improvement was se- bear arms ceased, the police might hear curity to life and property. The noble the shot, which would be then less freMarquess who moved the committal of the quent; and if they, on proceeding to the Bill had very clearly pointed out how the place, found a number of people lurking present disorganised state of society in about, those people might be at once Ireland prevented improvement-how it stopped and searched. And while the prevented investment of capital in that carrying of arms would be thus restricted country. In moral and social improvement in the comparatively peaceable counties, in the first step must be to restore order. If those districts where disturbances were Her Majesty's Ministers had introduced frequent the Lord Lieutenant could require the Bill with the limited object of repres- that all arms be delivered up by a certain sing crime, rather than to take away the day. It would be absolutely unjust to disposition for crime, he would allow that make it illegal to possess arms until the the measure was open to great objection-parties had an opportunity of getting rid many seeming omissions might very rea- of them. It would be unjust to make the sonably have been complained of. But possession of arms a misdemeanor, and to their Lordships would allow him to point out the moral effect of the measure. He thought that a mild measure, passed with all but the unanimous support of both Houses-many Members in both Houses declaring their willingness to support a still stronger measure was likely to have a much greater moral effect than a sweeping Bill passed after a long and vehement struggle, and the opposition to which had been raised, not only by persons whose numbers and mode of proceeding deprived them of all weight and influence, but by men honestly convinced that the powers asked for were excessive. It appeared to him that the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) seemed to underrate the extent of the powers given by the Act. The noble Lord found fault with the necessity for two proclamations, believing that it would enable evil-disposed parties to remove their arms to the neighbouring districts. The noble Lord seemed to have overlooked the fact that the moment a district was proclaimed, no person was allowed to carry arms at all. That was the effect of the first proclamation. The second proclamation author-police. What would be more likely to reised a search for arms. The Bill gave the Lord Lieutenant power to extend this first proclamation to other and more extensive districts than those placed under

proceed to punish the holders without first giving the parties notice. Then the noble Lord complained that the Act empowered the Lord Lieutenant to issue his warrant to search for arms in no place except the dwelling-house. Such power was not required. The police, under ordinary powers, could search in gardens, yards, bogs, or any such places. There was no power taken under the Act, because such a power was absolutely needless. The only purpose for which a warrant was required was in cases when the police wanted to force their way into dwelling-houses and search for arms, after the possession of arms had been declared illegal. Then the noble Lord asked, whether it would be illegal for lodgers to possess arms. He (Earl Grey) would not give a decided opinion on that head; but he thought it of little consequence. The real object of that part of the Act of Parliament was to prevent the practice of carrying arms. Her Majesty's Government also relied much upon that portion of the Bill which empowered the Lord Lieutenant to increase the number of

store order than the saddling a district with an expensive police force? The police might be increased to any extent in the disturbed districts. If 100 were re