body who formed at least an important | in the meantime, with opposing the Comminority, he trusted his noble Friend mittee until they obtained some further inwould afford ample time for the dis- formation on the subject. cussion. VISCOUNT MORPETH had suggested to the hon. Member for Oxford (Sir R. H. Inglis) whether, under the circumstances, ment of the Committee till after Christmas; but it seemed to be the general wish that they should constitute the Committee at present. The returns which had been moved were prepared, and would be laid on the table of the House on Monday next. He hoped the House would, in the meantime, accede to the appointment of the Committee. LORD J. RUSSELL: I propose, if the House allow me to introduce a Bill, to bring in that Bill on Monday, and it hav-it might not be better to delay the appointing been read a first time, I shall not propose the second reading of course till after the recess. That will give six weeks for the country to consider the measure; but, after the recess, I propose to name an early day, Monday, the 7th of February, for the second reading. My hon. Friend observed that this Christian country ought to express its opinion upon this measure. The country contains many millions of Protestants and Roman Catholics, and some 20,000, 30,000, or 40,000 Jews. I imagine if this Bill receive the assent of Parliament, the country will be still as much-neither more nor less-a Christian country with its millions of Christians and its 30,000 Jews, unless, indeed, my Friend were to propose to expel the Jews, like the Moriscoes from Spain. Bill to be brought in. NEW PALACE OF WESTMINSTER. SIR R. H. INGLIS moved hon. "That a Select Committee be appointed on the present state of the New Palace at Westminster, with a view to the reception and accommodation of this House therein, and the probable expense of its completion; and also to inquire into the present state of Westminster-bridge. MR. OSBORNE was sorry to be obliged to oppose anything proposed by the hon. Baronet; but he considered he would not be doing his duty to the country if he permitted an individual Member of Parliament, however respectable, to propose a Select Committee, of which the great majority of the House could not approve. He had said, the other night, that a job had been effected in this business. He had no intention in saying so, of hurting the feelings of Mr. Barry or of the most sensitive Commissioners of the Woods and Forests; but since that time he had discovered that the affair resolved itself into a charge of a graver nature, inasmuch as in the report of the Commission appointed by the House of Lords, in 1844, he found that Mr. Barry was distinctly charged with having broken his contract, and laid out sums of money without the sanction of Parliament. He would not, at that late hour, trouble the House with the evidence of this, but would content himself, mittee should not be nominated until after DR. BOWRING thought that the Comthe documents connected with the subject were presented to the House. MR. M. MILNES said, that if the architect were to be bullied, and unnecessarily limited as to time and expense, it would be impossible to expect a work of art worthy of the age and country. He maintained that no work of art of the same magnitude had ever advanced more rapidly than this had done. At MR. AGLIONBY said, the subject was one rather for discussion in that House, than for inquiry before a Committee. all events the Committee should be postponed till a later period, until they had seen the returns. It had been stated, that although the estimates did not amount to 800,000l., the expenditure had already been 1,500,000l. When a statement to this effect was made last night, he understood the noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) not to call in question the accuracy of the figures; and he should like to hear from the noble Lord, if the statement was incorrect, why he had not last night corrected it? No one could do a greater benefit to Mr. Barry, in his opinion, than furnish a correct statement of the amount expended on the new buildings. MR. WAKLEY, seeing no prospect of this matter being brought to a termination that night, would move that the debate be adjourned. There were charges made, not only of large and uncalled-for expenditure, but of serious departures from the original plans. The noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) had promised to lay further information on the table of the House; and he thought that information should be before them, and that a full discussion should take place previous to the appointment of the Com VISCOUNT MORPETH could state, on the authority of the architect, that the original estimate was 707,000l., and that the expenditure on the works comprised in that estimate was only 808,0001. He mittee. He, therefore, moved the adjourn- | which there were Gentlemen who showed ment of the debate. that they acted with great suspicion towards Mr. Barry, after a most minute investigation came to a deliberate conclusion completely exonerating Mr. Barry. did not say that Mr. Barry had literally kept to every item of the plan laid before the House; but it was distinctly proved that every alteration involving any expenditure of money was laid before the Commissioners and reported to the Treasury, so that it had the proper sanction enforced by the House. He would not have made that statement had he not thought it called for in fairness towards an honourable gentleman, a member of an honourable profession. Would it not be just to Mr. Barry that this discussion should cease that the Motion and appointment of the Committee should be postponed till after the recess, when the documents promised by the noble Lord should be laid before the House, and Mr. Barry have an opportunity of making any explanations which might be thought necessary? No Commissioner of Woods and Forests was a whit less responsible than Mr. Barry; and being himself involved in those charges, he was anxious, for his own sake, for Mr. Barry's, and for that of all parties, that the charges should be fully investigated. The EARL of LINCOLN hoped that the most searching investigation would be made into the matter, because he was sure that many of the charges made by hon. Members would turn out to be wholly groundless. Anything more unfair than the course adopted by hon. Members opposite, he had never witnessed in that House, especially as their charges had been directed against a professional man, whose reputation was as dear to him as that of any hon. Gentleman's could be. He knew the keen sense of honour which influenced the conduct of Mr. Barry; and he was confident that none of the accusations brought against him could be substantiated. It was most improper that almost on the last day of the adjournment, and when six weeks must elapse before any answer could be made in that House, serious charges against Mr. Barry should be brought forward. If the appointment of the Committee was to be postponed, why were not the charges postponed also? The noble Lord had promised that full facts should be laid before the House, and when those facts were brought forward they would be able to judge of the whole case. It would be seen from what he had said that he had no wish to stifle this inquiry. He was perfectly sure that Mr. Barry, though he had had no conversation with him on the subject, and had not met him, except by accident in the street, for two years, would also be anxious for inquiry. Last night the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne) had made what he called a light charge, and he said he was prepared to make one infinitely stronger; that he was able to prove that Mr. Barry had expended large sums of money in buildings unsanctioned by the House of Commons. The hon. Member for Bolton (Dr. Bowring) had followed up this statement with a similar one, to the effect that Mr. Barry had done this without the sanction either of the House or the office of Woods and Forests. Now, similar charges were brought against Mr. Barry in 1844, and they were investigated by Committees both of the House of Lords and the House of Commons. The report of the Committee of the Lords he had not read; but he found that the Commons' Committee, in MR. OSBORNE was ready to accede to the noble Lord's proposals. He had no personal knowledge of Mr. Barry; he had come forward on public grounds; but it was the present Government and the past that he had singled out. He was prepared to prove that the Commissioners had not discharged their duties, and that the office ought to be abolished. VISCOUNT MORPETH was glad the hon. Gentleman was prepared to postpone further proceedings. Certain expenses apart from the building, such as purchases, were unprovided for; but he rejoiced, at least, in one result of the discussion, that the hon. Member for Middlesex had pronounced an unequivocal acquittal of Mr. Barry. Motion withdrawn. House adjourned at half-past One o'clock. Heavy Penalties on all Roman Catholic Priests who shall ments must have taken place, but which Denounce Persons from the Altar.-From Alnwick, for the Removal of Jewish Disabilities. ROMAN CATHOLIC ABSOLUTION. proved, when tested before a Committee of that House, to be utterly fallacious, representing as capital subscribed money which had been borrowed from the banker. He LORD BROUGHAM presented some pe- (Lord Monteagle) proposed in the present titions. He took this opportunity of supplying a defect in the statement which he measure, that upon the application of a had made some nights before respecting given number of shareholders, representing a given amount of the stock or capital, the the important subject of absolution by directors should be compelled to submit Roman Catholic priests. The course which he had recommended of forbidding all their accounts to an inspector appointed by the Railway Commissioners, who should reaccess of priests to persons under sentence, and which he had described as pursued by port upon those accounts; such application for an independent audit to be made by the Emperor Napoleon, and by another person of great administrative powers, though persons who had been six calendar months less distinguished, had been also followed in possession of their stock, unless it came by a third ruler. The second he had not to them by inheritance, or bequest, or by named-it was General Maitland, when marriage. Ill-managed railway companies, Governor of Malta. He had to deal with if liable to such an inspection as this, in case of apprehensions being entertained by mutinous troops; and the refusal of access their shareholders, would probably amend to their priests when convicts lay under sentence, was known to have produced the their system, and thus the indirect effect of such a measure as this might be greater most immediate and general effect in pre-than the direct; and as for any objection venting the offence. The third example he about a supposed invasion of private right, had through inadvertence omitted to men- Parliament, which created these companies, tion-it was that of his illustrious, revered, might be deemed to be trustees for the and beloved Friend-unhappily now no He, rispublic to see that the functions bestowed more the Marquess Wellesley. ing superior to all prejudices and all the were rightly exercised. influence of a false-a misplaced humanity, had, with the manly vigour which ever marked his government, both made it the rule to transfer convicts instantly from the place of judgment to the place of punishment-an invaluable method of increasing the effects of penal infliction by the swiftness of its pace after conviction; and also made it a peremptory provision that from the moment of conviction the prisoners should never see the absolving priest. He (Lord Brougham) entertained no doubt that the most salutary consequences would result at the present time from adopting the same bold and decisive course. AUDIT OF RAILWAY ACCOUNTS BILL. LORD MONTEAGLE laid on the table a Bill for providing a more effectual Audit of Railway Accounts. The existing system of audit by persons more or less connected with the governing body, must naturally be open to the suspicion that statements more favourable than the real facts would warrant, might be given out to the world, to induce the public to purchase shares; and, without attributing frauds to the railway companies generally, he could state that accounts had been periodically published, upon the faith of which invest Bill read 1a. POOR LAW (IRELAND). ing laid on the table Returns relating to LORD MONTEAGLE said, in the discussion on the poor law, last year, there was no question more discussed than whether the rates were to be levied by union Parliament ultielectoral divisions. or mately decided for the rating by electoral divisions; but he understood the Poor Law Commissioners had treated the funds so raised as a common and united fund, and applied them indiscriminately for the purposes of the whole union, thereby in effect introducing that very system of rating which Parliament had refused to sanction. He wished to ask, therefore, if the Government were aware whether the funds so levied were applied to electoral or union divisions? any The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE was not aware that there had been deviation from the course prescribed by the statutes, and trusted nothing had taken place in Ireland which was at all inconsistent with the intention of the Legisla ture, that the burden referred to should be thrown upon the electoral division. REAL PROPERTY COMMISSION. LORD BROUGHAM, in moving for a paper to be forthwith printed-a copy of the Real Property Commission issued last summer, and ordered on his Motion in June -said, that he must state to the House the objects of that Commission. It had been issued in compliance with a report of the Burthens on Lands Committee. That Committee had examined many witnesses upon a most important subject-the burthens to which the owners of land, and those who wished to become owners, were subjected by the defective state of the law regulating the transmission of property by conveyance. The whole labours of the Committee were highly important; but by far the most valuable result of those labours was the body of evidence which the Committee had collected upon the state of the law, and the injurious tendency of its defects. Grounded upon this evidence was the recommendation of the Committee; and it related to four separate heads: first, the improvement of the law of real property; secondly, the simplification of titles; thirdly, the shortening, and generally the improving the forms of deeds; fourthly, the establishment of a general registry. Now he (Lord Brougham) had not, of course, seen the Commission, a copy of which he had moved for, but which from some accident had not yet been presented; but he had occasion to know the substance of the Commission from those who had access to it; and its objects were, not the four which he had described as recommended by the Committee, but only the two last the forms of deeds, and the registry. No one was more ready than himself to admit the great importance of these two heads. Indeed he had already carried an important Bill upon the first of these two-the shortening and simplifying town leases-and had introduced another more general measure, which stood over for the consideration of the Commission. But he believed he spoke the general sense of those who were anxious for the amendment of the law, and, he might add, of the Commissioners themselves, when he expressed his regret that the two first of the Committee's recommendations had not also been adopted, and that the inquiries of the Commission had been confined to the two last. Indeed, it would be found practically to be impossible that the Commission should satisfactorily execute its duties with respect to the forms of deeds and the establishment of a registry, without having the power of inquiring into the law of real property and the simplification of titles. He trusted that his noble Friends opposite would, during the recess, accede to this recommendation, with the invaluable assistance of his noble and learned Friend, unfortunately absent from illness, but whose improved health, he rejoiced to say, gave a prospect of his speedily attending to this important subject, and that the defect in the Commission would be supplied by an extension of its powers. Nor was this the only subject relating to the amendment of the law that called for their attention. He found it had in some quarters been supposed that, because in giving his late notice of again introducing the Bill for enacting a digest or code of the criminal law, he had given no notice of renewing other measures of legislative improvement-the mention of one excluded the rest-on the contrary, it was his intention to bring forward the other measures also; but he felt unwilling to crowd the book with general notices, because when he gave one it was always specific, and intended to be really followed up. He therefore abstained now from doing more than broaching two subjects which seemed not to admit of delay, because the Government could of itself act, and act efficaciously, respecting both; and, therefore, he wished to point their attention towards those subjects, in order that, during the approaching recess, some progress might be made in dealing with them. The first and, in his view, one of the most important that could occupy the attention of the community, was that which he had at the close of the last Session brought before their Lordships - he meant the bribery practised at elections. Complaining of this enormity after the election of 1841, he had ventured to foretell that at the last election it would be repeated, unless some check was applied. Some of his friends, he knew, differed with him as to the degree in which this had prevailed, his own inquiries having satisfied him that 1847 was worse than 1841. But all were agreed that the crime had been extensively committed, and no one pretended to extenuate its dreadful consequences to the morals of the whole people. Every one allowed that no means should be left untried to lessen, if we could not extirpate, this grievous enormity. But while he denied that the other House of Parliament had any exclusive right to commence proceedings for amending the law so as to reach such offence more certainly, and while he cited, as last Session he had 1409 {DEC. 20} Real Property done, the remarkable precedent of the he encountered of the penalties inflicted most important provisions in the Bribery by the law. But to make this measure, Act of George II., originating in their or any such measure as might be resorted Lordships' House, and being agreed to to, against offenders effectual by prosecuby the Commons, he yet must admit tion, one thing was plainly wanted-a Here our law, that if the Commons were disposed to party charged with the duty of bringing perform their duty, a Bill relating so these offenders to trial. nearly to the elections of their Members not merely as to bribery, but our whole might appropriately originate in that House criminal law, was grievously defective-and he felt that it would be fitter for though there was, for obvious reasons, no their Lordships only to move in this im- one branch of that law in which the defect portant matter, in case it should be found operated more injuriously. The comprothat nothing, or nothing effectual, was mises ever made between parties, sometimes He had reason to because their guilt was common to both, done in the Commons. believe that a Member of that House, a almost always because the interest of the worthy Baronet, already known advantage- party was different from that of the public, ously to their Lordships as the mover of a rendered the want of a public prosecutor Bill which had been approved by the Crim- peculiarly fatal in preventing the detection inal Law Committee, and had received and punishment of bribery at elections. their Lordships' sanction, and he trusted He (Lord Brougham) had repeatedly dihad produced beneficial effects, he meant rected the attention of Parliament to this Sir John Pakington, was to give notice of defect in our law, become still more glara Bill for preventing bribery at elections. ing since the Bill passed allowing the His evidence in And he (Lord Brougham) should therefore prisoner's counsel to address the jury only now intimate that in case no such in all cases of felony. Committee of the House of ComBut an Bill was sent up within a reasonable time, a he should feel it his duty to renew his mons was full to this effect. former proposition. Nothing seemed to Act of Parliament was not in the first him more clear than that there was one ef- instance at least required to begin this fectual means of greatly lessening, if not of great improvement in the law. His noble altogether preventing, the evil complained Friend opposite (the Marquess of Lansof. It was what he had stated on the downe) might recollect that in 1834 he eve of the last election-the compelling (Lord Brougham) and the then Secretary every Member returned to take an oath for the Home Department were much ocor make a solemn declaration before taking cupied in laying the foundation of such a his seat, that he had not, in any manner plan, by adopting for the Central Criminal of way, directly or indirectly, by himself Court, whose jurisdiction extended over a or his agents, given any money, or other population of nearly two millions, the plan thing, or any promise, to any voter or which had long been adopted in Northumberland and the West Riding of Yorkshire any other person, for any vote; and that he had not paid any money, knowing, or believing that it was to be employed in obtaining any votes, nor had repaid any money which he believed had been paid in obtaining any votes; and solemnly promising that he would not afterwards at any time pay any such money. He was confident that such an oath or solemn declaration might be framed as no man durst take if he knew that he had bribed, or that any persons had bribed for him, or that he was to repay any sum so expended for him; because whoever should venture to do so must know that some half-dozen, or half-score, or possibly half hundred persons, and those not the most trustworthy, or the most likely to keep his secret, would be aware of his having made himself utterly and for ever, and past all forgiveness, infamous-independent of the risk VOL. XCV. Third Series employing regularly a counsel to superintend the prosecution of offenders. The same course being pursued in the metropolis, with certain obvious additions, it would be found so advantageous that little difficulty would have been found in obtaining the legislative sanction to it, and having a public prosecutor with his deputies for the circuits, and his local representatives, as they had in Scotland, in France, and He ventured to hope in other countries. that the Government would turn their attention to this subject during the recess. They had every inducement to adopt salutary measures for amending our laws, when it was found that the rare advantage at present belonged to them of really acting uncontrolled by any opposition. For a time, at least, they seemed wholly free from any such obstruction. He hoped they 2 7 |