again and again discussed in that House | tion, or whether in coming forward with during the last seven years, but that House such proposals, he had acted without the had refused to disturb that decision. What concurrence of his superiors. As it had he complained of in the hon. Member for been represented by the hon. Member for Montrose, was the colour he had given to Montrose, it would appear as if Major Carthe papers before the House; and when penter had been applied to concerning his he told them how those papers came to be opinion of the guilt or innocence of the laid on the table, those who were not cog- Rajah whom he had in charge; in reality nisant of the facts would admit that he no such call was ever made upon him, nor had a right to complain. The hon. Mem- were his sentiments on the subject ever ber for Montrose had given the House to attempted to be elicited. When the Gounderstand that the Governor General of vernor General, at the request of the Court India had referred to a public officer to of Directors, applied to him, all that was give his opinion on a particular question; asked was, "Did you, Major Carpenter, that that officer gave his opinion, and be- make such a communication? And if you cause it was adverse to the opinions enter- did, explain your conduct, and show that tained by the Government he was rebuked. you, as a public servant, did not act in diThen the hon. Gentleman who last spoke, rect dereliction of your duty." And in had stated in the Court of Proprietors of point of fact, Major Carpenter was the the East India Company, that Major Car- only man in India who could not give an penter, the agent of the Governor General, opinion in the question. The Government had gone to the Rajah, and made certain of India had declared the Rajah of Sattara proposals to him on behalf of the Govern- guilty of certain offences, and had directed ment, and had said to him, You had that he should be held in confinement at better admit your guilt, for then they will Benares. This particular officer was apallow your son to be adopted;" and that pointed to take charge of the deposed we offered him a number of temptations. Prince; and, while retaining him in safe Every individual connected with the Go- custody, to see that his imprisonment, if vernment of India was of course aston-it might be so called, was made as little ished when the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, before the Court of Proprietors, made that statement. No one had ever even heard of such a communication; and all felt directly satisfied that it was impossible any such proposals ever could have been made. [Mr. THOMPSON: I stated only that there were rumours of such proposals.] He did not mean to say that the hon. Member had made the statement on his own personal knowledge; but, having heard of the assertion, he made the most of it; and what was his inference?

irksome as possible, consistently with that object. Major Carpenter occupied the position of a gaoler; and for him to ask for evidence, or to express doubt of the facts on which his charge had been convicted by the highest tribunal of India, would have been, indeed, very extraor dinary conduct. What would have been thought of Sir Hudson Lowe, if, when keeping Napoleon safe at St. Helena, he had read a lecture to the Government of that day upon the impropriety or injustice of having such a distinguished personage under lock and key? And if Sir Hudson Lowe, had so absurdly stepped beyond the limits of his duty, would any Member of the then House of Commons have been entitled to adduce that opinion as a sound one in favour of the character of the Emperor? When felons were committed to Newgate, the gaoler was not justified in He scouted at once the supposition that remonstrating with the judge, or, whatever there could be any foundation for the story. might be his own conviction, in pointing The Court of Directors took immediate out that the jury had made a mistake, and steps to inquire into the matter. They that the verdict ought to be quashed. sent despatches to Lord Hardinge, desir- Major Carpenter had no new evidence ing him to call on Major Carpenter to which could have enabled him to come to know from that officer if the allegation was any more correct conclusion than that true to obtain information as to whether already recorded against the Rajah. Mahe had any authority from the Governor jor Carpenter knew nothing but that General to make the asserted communica- with which any Member of the House

"Look," said the hon. Member, "how conscience-stricken is the Government of India! They endeavour to extricate themselves from the scrape by declaring the Rajah guilty; they then authorise their own agent to make certain propositions to the Prince, which they agree to carry into execution, if he will only consent to put them right with the world by admitting these charges to be just, and that he is guilty!"

might make himself acquainted on a perusal of the blue books. Major Carpenter was not even made aware of the peculiar circumstances which had led to the deposal and afterwards to the confinement at Benares of the Rajah. The Government never even deemed it necessary to make him acquainted with the private history of the affair; and, but for certain documents laid on a Motion before that House, he would have known only what was known to every official in India. The hon. Member for Montrose had assumed conversations to

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called for. The Government for the time being and the Court of Directors having convinced posing him from his throne, and sentenced him to themselves of the ex-Rajah's guilt, decided on deconfinement at Benares. At Benares you were charged with the prisoner's custody; with the charges decided against him, and his previous conduct, you had no concern; and, considering your official position, it was to be expected that while treating the Prince with all consideration and kindness, you would scrupulously avoid any discussion of the accusations on which the final decision of the Government had been passed, and even discard all allusion to them by the ex-Rajah in your presence."

have taken place between the Major and [Cheers.] He did not understand those the Rajah; he had distinctly declared that derisive cries of Hear, hear!" Surely the Rajah had received from that officer no fault could be found with the Governor certain offers, the nature of which had General for telling an officer, the most conbeen detailed to the House; and the hon. fidential that could be appointed, and holdMember told this story, though while speak-ing a station, in a minor degree analogous ing he held in his hand a paper in which to that of an ambassador in Europe, that the charge had been denied by Major Car- he is not to go to the person at whose court penter in toto. The reply of Major Car- he is resident, and to persuade that perpenter to inquiries was, that the alleged son that the Government he represented conversations so minutely recorded were so had acted unjustly? No one could quesdirectly at variance with the numerous con- tion the propriety of the rebuke given to sultations he had held with the Rajah re- Major Carpenter; and though he imputed garding the general state of affairs, that no improper motives, he must candidly he must at once pronounce the greater confess he thought that in exercising his part of them to be purely imaginary;" he judgment in the matter, and giving his in addition, declared that "the propositions" opinion, that officer had grossly violated his (on which the hon. Member had laid so duty. Major Carpenter, on receiving the much force) were never at any period, reprimand, acknowledged his fault, and either directly or indirectly, made by me offered an apology. He admitted that in to the ex-Rajah of Sattara, either on my ordinary circumstances an officer having own responsibility, or by the authority of charge of a dethroned prince had no conthe Governor General.' Now, this was a cern whatever with the previous conduct pretty broad disclaimer, sufficiently empha- of the prisoner, or with the justice of the tic to rebut all the charges created by the sentence from which he was suffering. He hon. Member. Major Carpenter, as a man endeavoured to show that this case was a of honour and integrity, was to be believed; peculiar one, and that in acting as he did and after his sweeping denial nothing more he had not exceeded his duty. Well, what could be said of his having made the offers made this an extraordinary case? There of the description alluded to. Major Car- might have been some justification for his penter could only give his opinion by vio- proceedings if he had been in possession of lating his duty; and Lord Hardinge spoke particular information, throwing new light unreservedly of the impropriety of an officer on the case, and of which the tribunal by in such a position interfering at all. The which the Rajah had been condemned had denial which he tendered to the Governor been left in ignorance; but there was noGeneral was duly acknowledged, and the thing to show that this was the case, alremarks which accompanied the letter were though, by implication, the hon. Member important:for Montrose had given the House to understand that Major Carpenter was better able to judge than any other individual in India of the entire innocence of the unfortunate Rajah. Putting aside, however, all discussion of his guilt, hon. Gentlemen must consider the circumstances in which the Government was placed with regard to the Rajah. He had very little reason to complain of the conduct of the Government

"You have (said the Secretary) in the opinion of his Lordship, by your own showing, very much mistaken your duty to the Government in the position which you occupied, by the course of conduct you describe yourself to have pursued with regard to the ex-Rajah of Sattara since he has been placed under your charge at Benares. His Lordship is also of opinion that your assertion of the ex-Rajah's innocence of the charge of which he was convicted, and of his ability to prove that innocence, is as unbecoming as it was un

towards him. The revenue of his territory | likened to a gaoler and ambassador, as it had only been about 10 lacs, or 100,000l. suited the turn of the argument: that the He was taken by the Government from a position of Major Carpenter was, in some dungeon-["No, no!"-or at any rate out respects, similar to that of an ambassador, of captivity, in which, had they not come he would not deny; but he had yet to learn to his aid, he would probably have for ever that the duties of an ambassador, even at remained; and, out of motives of compas- the court of an independent prince, obliged sion, he was so far befriended as to be a man of honour to conduct himself upon placed upon the throne of Sattara. When the principles indicated by the hon. Barothe Government became apprehensive that net, or to execute orders blindly, concealby his conduct he would raise a flame of ing from the knowledge of a friendly prince revolt throughout the whole continent of matters that tended to his advantage, alIndia, he was deposed and consigned to a though possibly prejudicial to the policy sort of demi-confinement, and his income of those whose colleague or inferior he then was made 10,000l. a year, the tenth might be. In this instance there were pepart of his former revenue. There was no culiar obligations upon Major Carpenter; penury or misery in the case; and what- for while he represented the rights and ever Major Carpenter might have said, the interests of the British Crown, he had also opinion proceeded only from an individual, been appointed with large discretionary and that individual, it had been made ap- powers as a confidential counsellor of the parent, had not acted in a manner to im-immured Prince; and was consequently press his superiors with a conviction of the soundness of his judgment.

MR. ANSTEY could now picture to himself what must be the condition of the people of India, governed by a Company, one of the members of which did not hesitate to give utterance to principles of morality such as they had just heard. He rose, however, not to comment upon the policy which it was declared ought to guide officials in their intercourse with the natives of India, but merely to do justice to the reputation of a meritorious officer. The motives and conduct of that officer had not been stated fairly. Major Carpenter, it was true, as the hon. Baronet said, had denied the accuracy of the conversation reported to have passed between himself and the Rajah at Benares; but the House had not been favoured with the Major's explanations as to those portions of the colloquy which were correct, and those which were purely imaginery. In all essential points, the allegation of proposals having been made by Major Carpenter to the deposed Prince to confess himself guilty, as a condition of perfect freedom, remained still uncontradicted. The declaration of the Rajah was, that offers were made to him to relinquish all further claim to the Sattara throne, as he had spent ten years in unavailing efforts to withdraw his Agent from London-and cease to use any exertion to influence the Government in his favour. There was no proof before the House that such proposals had not been made; and that they had not been made by Major Carpenter. With respect to Major Carpenter, that gentleman had been

more than ordinarily bound to act according to those principles of truth and justice which the hon. Baronet appeared to repudiate. He denied that Major Carpenter was bound blindly to obey the orders of his masters, when he had become convinced of their injustice and illegality; on the contrary, he was bound to disobey them. He contended that the Major had exercised his large discretionary powers wisely in taking this course; and he expressed his conviction, which he trusted the House would share with him, that there had been the blackest guilt on the part of those who had oppressed the Rajahthat the Rajah was innocent-that the case was no longer one of charge against that Prince, but against Ministers at home and their delegates abroad-and that it called for inquiry, for impeachment, and for punishment.

MR. WAKLEY believed, that the hon. Baronet could not lay his hand upon his heart, and pledge his honour that he believed the Rajah guilty. The hon. Baronet had spoken of the Rajah having a gaoler. Had he had a trial? If he had a gaoler, had he had a jury? It was notorious that the Rajah had been treated as a guilty man, and most grievously punished; but had never undergone the ordeal afforded in this country to a man accused of a capital crime. He had not had a trial; he had not been heard in his defence; he had not seen the evidence upon which he had been convicted. But it was waste of time to say more now. Another Motion of a similar character must shortly be brought forward, and then the justice

of the House would be tested.

DR. BOWRING inquired whether it were intended that the metropolis should be included within the provisions of such Bill?

VISCOUNT MORPETH could not answer the question at present.

RELIEF MONEY (IRELAND).

He con- to the health of towns at an early day on tended that Major Carpenter had violated the reassembling of Parliament after the no confidence, and broken no obligation Christmas recess. imposed upon him by his situation. He had been asked to report by the Secret Department, and he had made his report secretly. It had been only by a fortunate accident that the communication had been brought forward. He was sorry to see the hon. ex-Poor Law Commissioner (Mr. Lewis) in the situation he occupied that night; for he should have hoped that the MR. FRENCH inquired of the Chanmaiden speech of the hon. Gentleman would cellor of the Exchequer what course Her have been directed to a different object Majesty's Government meant to adopt for than that of withholding justice from a the recovery of the monies advanced to the persecuted man. However, it was fortu- several unions in Ireland, under the pronate that no board of guardians had juris-visions of the Act 10th and 11th Victoria, diction in the matter to act under the hon. c. 7, for the relief of the destitute poor, ex-Commissioner's instructions; for if so, and how much of the money so advanced the Rajah might esteem himself fortunate it was their intention to insist on the reif he obtained an allowance of 3lb. of gruel payment of? He would also inquire and 16oz. of bread. He trusted that ulti- whether or not it was the intention of Gomately the House would decide that the vernment to have those works completed Rajah was an injured man, and entitled to which had been undertaken in Ireland unjustice at their hands. der the provisions of the Act 1st and 2nd Victoria, c. 21, and, if it should not be the intention to complete those works, whether or not they intended to ask from the grand juries repayment of any monies expended by them on such works? He was aware that the first question had received an answer in the Parliamentary papers delivered that morning; but he begged notwithstanding to put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in order that the answer might, through the instrumentality of the public press, go forth to the people of Ireland. With respect to the second question, he wished to guard himself from the supcellor of the Exchequer any statement inposition of desiring to draw from the Chanvolving any further advance of money to the people of Ireland. What he wanted to know was, whether the Government would perform the engagements under which the works were undertaken?

Motion agreed to.

House adjourned at Nine o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,
Monday, November 29, 1847.
MINUTES.] Took the Oaths.-Several Lords.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Monday, November 29, 1847. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1o Crime and Outrage (Ire

land).

2o Railways.

PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir R. H. Inglis, from Wakefor, the Removal of Jewish Disabilities.-By Lord John field, against, and by Mr. J. A. Smith, from Chichester,

Russell, from Glasgow, for the Abolition of Tests in

Scotch Universities.-By Sir De L. Evans, from Westminster, and Sir B. Hall, from Marylebone, for Inquiry Colonel Thompson, and Mr. J. Williams, from several places, against Coercion, and for Measures of Amelioration (Ireland).-By Mr. A. Hastie, from Cotton Workers of Glasgow, for Consideration of their Trade.-From Norwich, for the Adoption of a High Court of Judicature for Settling Disputes between Nations by Arbitration.

respecting the Rajah of Sattara.-By Mr. F. O'Connor,

HEALTH OF TOWNS.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The first question of my hon. Friend refers to the repayment of a portion of the sum advanced under the TemMR. BAINES inquired of the noble porary Relief Act, or the Ration Act, as Lord at the head of the Woods and I believe it is called in Ireland, which Forests, whether it were the intention of was passed to enable Her Majesty's Gothe Government to introduce into Parlia-vernment to supply with food, during the ment any measure relating to the public health of towns?

VISCOUNT MORPETH begged to say, in answer to the question, that it was the hope of Her Majesty's Government to be able to introduce a measure with respect

summer, a great number of destitute persons in Ireland. I stated, early in the last Session, what the probable amount required for that purpose would be, and I am happy to say that, mainly in consequence of the fall in the price of provisions,

said Commissioners of the Treasury shall appoint and direct."

BANKING-SCOTLAND AND IRELAND.

and the care taken in administering the funds, the sum required falls considerably short of the estimated amount. The vote That is to say, that one half of the sums I took for this purpose was for a sum not advanced from time to time is to be preexceeding 2,200,000l., and the actual ex-sented by the grand juries, and to be rependiture-though relief was afforded to a paid with interest, as the Treasury may much later period than was at first intended direct. I consider that these works now -including the maintenance of the fever stand much in the position of other works. hospitals, does not amount to more than They have been continued as relief works; 1,673,000l. The sums to be recovered the necessity for their continuance as relief from the different unions vary accord- works has ceased; and I therefore do not ing to the ability of the various unions to propose to impose upon the people of this repay the amounts advanced; and hon. country any further burden, merely for the Gentlemen who refer to the papers which purpose of completing those works. But, have been laid on the table will find that as I privately announced to the Lord Lieuthere is a material difference, according to tenant of Ireland some time ago, I am the circumstances of the unions. In the ready, as soon as the repayment of these union of Ballina, for instance, which is one advances begins, to re-advance the amounts of the most distressed, the amount to be so repaid for the purpose of completing the repaid is 13,7167., the amount of grant works undertaken under the Act. being 43,6107. In the Ballinasloe union the sum to be repaid is 20,3461., and the amount of grant 11,1247.; the total net amount advanced by the Relief Commission being 81,4701. The sum to be repaid by the Westport union is 5,6241., the amount of grant being 37,9937.; and in the Wexford union 7,8667. is to be repaid, the grant being only 6577. With regard to the second question put by the hon. Gentleman, as to what is to be done with reference to the completion of the works undertaken in Ireland under the provisions of the 1st and 2nd Victoria, c. 21, that must depend mainly upon what the grand juries in Ireland choose to do. It was stated, in the first instance, on the part of the late Government, that these works were not undertaken with the view of completing them, but mainly for the purpose of affording employment to the people during a period of distress; and it has been announced, in several documents since laid on the table, that the Government do not undertake to complete those works. With regard to the repayment of the monies which have been on such works, I do not think, on referring to the Act, that there is the slightest ground for a claim, on the part of the counties, to be relieved from any portion of the repayment until the works are completed. The 8th Clause of the Act 1 and 2 Victoria, c. 21, is in these words :

"And be it enacted, That a moiety of the monies so from time to time advanced for the execution of public works in any county, pursuant to the application of the justices and cesspayers assembled at special sessions as aforesaid, shall be repaid by grand jury presentment, at such time and in such manner, and with such interest, as the

COLONEL MURE wished to put a question to the right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of which he had given him notice. The House was aware that the provisions of the Bank Act of 1844, while they comprehended the provincial banks of England, did not extend to the banking systems of either Scotland or Ireland, a separate Act having been passed with reference to those countries in the Session of 1845; and he wished to ask whether it were the intention of the Government that the Committee for which the right hon. Baronet intended to move to-morrow should take up the question of the monetary system of Scotland and Ireland in connexion with the monetary system of England, or whether it were their intention that the monetary system of the two former countries should form the subject of a separate inquiry?

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER replied, that if the hon. Gentleman referred to the words of his notice, he would see that it was general. He proposed that the Committee for which he intended to move should inquire how far the recent commercial distress had been affected by the laws for regulating the issue of bank-notes payable on demand.

HOP DUTY-EXCISE LAWS. MR. FREWEN wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, as it was his intention to submit to Parliament a measure for the revision of the Excise laws, he could hold out any hope that he would propose the repeal of the duty on hops?