the relations of life, and beloved by all his | Lordships had a right to know whether it neighbours-was cut off by the hand of the was the intention of Her Majesty's Goassassin? If these things were true, he vernment to attempt to obtain that convichad a right to ask whether they had been tion; because, however lamentable the rereported to the Government; whether, in sult would be of the failure of a prosecuthe opinion of the law advisers of the Go- tion of this description, yet if the case vernment, the priest who had so conducted were clear, and the evidence undoubted, himself was legally, as well as he was- and the jury should appear to have failed he (Lord Stanley) had no hesitation in in their duty, then, he would say, that saying, if the facts were so-morally in the very failure would go far to enlighten the sight of God and man, guilty of the blood people and the Parliament of this country of the murdered Major Mahon? They had as to the real nature of the difficulties of a right to ask whether a prosecution would the Irish Government, and the nature of take place, or whether the law was unable the remedy to be applied. He would say, to reach such a case? They had a right that if the facts of the case were as had to know what the opinion of the law offi- been reported, and that there was a difficers of the Crown was on this matter, and culty as to the probability of obtaining a whether the Government had prosecuted, verdict, he would rather proceed with the or intended to prosecute, the priest who prosecution, and run the risk of an unjust had degraded his sacred office by making acquittal, than have it supposed that in the altar of God an incentive to murder; that-and, of course, in all similer casesor whether, if the law were unable to reach the Government were powerless, and the him, it was the intention of Her Majesty's provisions in the Statute-book a dead letter, Government to propose an alteration of the and that there was a practical impunity for law in this respect? The noble Marquess offences of that description. He hoped, had read extracts from the Statutes; and it therefore, that his noble Friend would rewas no doubt very desirable that it should peat his question to the Government, after be known, both here and in Ireland, that they should have had time to communicate such laws were in existence; but the ques- with the Lord Lieutenant. He hoped his tion was not, were these laws in the Sta- nocle Friend would put his question distute-book, but was it the intention of Her tinctly with reference to this case of the Majesty's Government to enforce the law? priest who was said to have denounced The question was, whether, in the opinion Major Mahon eight-and-forty hours before of the law officers of the Crown, the case his assassination; and he hoped the noble of this priest was within the terms of the Marquess would then be prepared to state Act, and whether it was intended to pro- whether any and what steps had been ceed against him? He thought they ought taken in the matter; and also whether, in likewise to know whether the priest being case of the repetition of these offences, the within the letter of the law, it was the in- Government were prepared to adopt steps tention of the Government to proceed with for the purpose of obtaining information promptitude against him? The noble Mar- on which they could rely, and from characquess would perhaps tell him that the law ters who were not likely to be tampered reached the case, but that it was a ques-with. He thought some good was likely tion of discretion on the part of the Go-to result from the explanation given by the vernment whether they should enter into the prosecution or not. He knew the difficulty in which the Government were placed. He had had the honour-perhaps he should have said the misfortune-of acting for some time as Chief Secretary for Ireland, and he knew the difficulty of procuring evidence for the purposes of prosecutions. He knew the slight hope of success which the Government must enter-ed prosecutions were followed by repeated tain in sending a Roman Catholic priest for trial before a jury, the majority consisting in many cases, perhaps, of the lower class of Roman Catholics, whose prejudices would be strongly in favour of a priest of their own religion. Still he thought their noble Marquess as to such an Act as that which he had read being on the Statutebook; but he was of opinion, that it would have been much better, and more desirable for the state of Ireland, if the noble Marquess had been enabled to say, that this case had been represented to the Government; that the priest would be proceeded against without delay; and that, if repeat failures, the Government would not hesitate to take such steps, at whatever sacrifice of constitutional principles, as would maintain that which was above all constitutional principles the security of the lives of the Queen's subjects. whose conduct had been so warmly approved of by all parties. The EARL of HARDWICKE read an extract from a petition that had been presented to their Lordships' House on the subject of the circulation in Ireland of the Papal bull, "In Coená Domini," in which the Sovereign of this country and her Protestant subjects were denounced, and made some remarks in reference to it which were inaudible. LORD CAMPBELL said, he had hoped | against an accomplice as an accessory bethat the answer of his noble Friend the fore the fact as a substantive proceeding. President of the Council would have been Now, he should say that this denunciation considered satisfactory by their Lordships. from the altar formed no exemption from He had himself had the honour of being the criminality of the proceeding. It had first law adviser to the Crown in this coun- been determined over and over again that try for a considerable period, and from his a minister of the Established Church of experience in that capacity he felt that it England, or a minister of the Established would be highly inexpedient and indiscreet Church of Scotland, was, if he said anyif questions were to be put in that House thing from the pulpit detrimental to the as to what cases were to be laid before the character of an individual, or anything law officers of the Crown, and what course that led to a breach of the public peace, was to be taken by the Government if the civilly and criminally liable for what he evidence was not found to be sufficient to said, just as much as if he spoke it from secure a conviction. He thought the ex- the market cross, or from a public platperience of the noble Lord opposite (Lord form. Under these circumstances he conStanley) should have pointed out to him sidered the existing law to be abundantly the inconveniences which were likely to re- sufficient to meet such cases; and he had sult from such a course. He had himself no doubt but that it would be energetically commenced his career under the noble administered by his noble Friend at the Lord, and he had assisted him in the pass-head of the Government in that kingdom, ing of the Coercion Bill of 1833, as first law adviser to the Crown. He would say, if their Lordships thought the law officers of the Crown knew their duty, that they ought at least to give them fair time to do their duty, and not apparently to suspect that they were remiss with respect to those cases that had been mentioned, much less that they were conniving at them. Might it not be that the evidence in the case had not yet been sufficiently matured, though at the same time the prosecution was by no means to be abandoned? He thought, therefore, that the answer of his noble Friend was perfectly satisfactory. As to the state of the law, he thought that the existing law was abundantly sufficient to reach such cases. He did not wish to allude to the particular case dwelt upon by the noble Lord, because it might come before a jury, and he hoped it would come before one; but he would say generally, that any incitement to commit a felony made the party who committed that incitement an accessory before the fact, and as such that he was liable by the law of England and Ireland to be punished as the principal was punished. An incitement to commit a murder would clearly render the accessory before the fact by whom that incitement was given, liable to expiate his offence by his life. Formerly it was necessary to proceed in the first instance against the principal; but that difficulty was removed by the Act of the 9th Geo. IV., which Act was extended to Ireland by the 10th Geo. IV. Under the law as it now stood all doubt was removed from the subject, and they were enabled to proceed LORD BEAUMONT said, he did not know that that bull had ever been read in Ireland. LORD BROUGHAM said, he had heard with great satisfaction the admirable manner in which his noble Friend had brought the subject before the House; and in answer to the question as to the sufficiency of the existing law, he would say, how could they refuse to consider the law as sufficient when his noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland stated, as appeared from what had fallen from the noble Marquess, that he was perfectly satisfied with the measures to be left at his disposal, and that he did not seek for more powers? Again, he was told by his noble and learned Friend who spoke last that the law was perfectly sufficient to meet the exigencies of the case. If the law were sufficient, then God forbid that any whisper should be heard from him to increase its rigour! He thought that the course taken by the Lord Lieutenant in not seeking for fresh powers, proved not merely that the law was sufficient to grapple with these crimes by punishing them, but also, that the law as it now stood could be enforced, and that he could safely prosecute, and get witnesses and juries to convict. He would say, however, that they would not be in the same situation as before if they once made an attempt to prosecute and failed; and he perfectly agreed with his noble Friend, that a failure of a prosecution would be the best foundation for calling for a law to enable them to meet the exigencies of the case. A priest denouncing a person from the altar, who is afterwards murdered, is undoubtedly an accessory before the fact to the murder, and becomes guilty of a capital felony. The question to be considered was, whether the Government should try to carry out the law as it now stood, or come to Parliament for new powers. Some of his noble Friends appeared to think the former course the better one to try in the first instance, and to that view he had no objection to offer. EARL GREY said, wherever evidence could be obtained, he believed there was no instance of juries shrinking from doing their duty properly. The law officers of the Crown in Ireland stated that there was undoubtedly great difficulty in apprehending offenders and collecting sufficient evidence against them; but wherever a sufficient case was established to come before a jury, it could surely not be said that juries had shown themselves reluctant to do their duty. Under these circumstances he thought Her Majesty's Government would be indefensible in asking for further powers to supersede the ordinary tribunals. In answer to what had been said by the noble Earl at the end of the bench (the Earl of Hardwicke), that the Government had shrunk from the responsibility of asking for greater powers, he (Earl Grey) denied that they had shrunk from any such responsibility; they asked for such powers as they deemed sufficient for the exigencies of the case. If, indeed, they were to say that the powers which they sought for would succeed, they would be presumptuous. But they believed the course they proposed was that which, upon the whole, was the most likely to obtain all the important objects of preventing and putting a stop to the crimes that prevailed in the parts of the country alluded to. He, for his own part, was convinced that no course would be more likely to be successful, than the one they had adopted. He would only further observe, that he thought they were indebted to the noble Lord who had originated that discussion, for the tone and manner in which he had brought the subject forward; and he regretted that the two noble Lords who had followed him had not also followed him in the same tone he had adopted. He regretted, also, that the noble Lord opposite, who had had so much experience in matters of Executive Government should have attempted to press Her Majesty's Government in such a manner to state what their intentions were with regard to the administration of criminal justice in Ireland. He thought it would be most injudicious to make such a statement, or to deliver opinions upon cases incidentally mentioned in debate. He could conceive nothing more rash than to give an opinion in that House, whether certain particular words quoted in the course of a debate did or did not justify criminal proceedings. It frequently happened that some persons alleged that those speeches delivered at public political meetings were intended to incite the hearers to crime, whilst others asserted the direct contrary. even when there was no moral doubt as to what the intentions of the speakers were, how often had it happened that it was deemed inexpedient to enter upon proceedings, or attempt legally to prove the of fence? And LORD BROUGHAM and LORD CAMPBELL said a few words in explanation. Subject at an end. House adjourned. —mmmmm HOUSE OF COMMONS, Monday, December 6, 1847. MINUTES.] PETITIONS PRESENTED. By several Hon. Members, from various places, for and against the Removal of the Jewish Disabilities.-By Mr. Fagan, from Cork, for the Abolition of Ministers' Money (Ireland).By Mr. Newdegate, from Warwick, for Inquiry into the Conduct of the Roman Catholic Clergy (Ireland).-By Mr. Hume, from Newington, Southwark, Finsbury, and Lambeth, for Inquiry into the Case of the Rajah of Sattara. By Mr. F. O'Connor, from several places, against the Crime and Outrage (Ireland) Bill, and for Measures of Amelioration. BRITISH AND FOREIGN SPIRITS. MR. MOFFATT wished to put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of which he had given notice, and which was of importance to the manufacturers of spirits in Scotland and Ireland. It was a subject on which much anxiety prevailed in both countries. The object was to obtain the same privileges for our manufacturers that were conceded to the French. He therefore asked whether it was the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the proposed new Excise Bill, to extend the bonding privileges to British spirits for home consumption that are at present conceded to foreign and colonial spirits? The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that the hon. Gentleman was aware that in Scotland and Ireland distillers had the privilege of warehousing. This was a question to which he had directed the attention of the Excise Board; but his hon. Friend must see that it would be far more convenient to all parties, when Government introduced a measure, to make a statement on the whole subject. He might at this time answer the question; but he thought it far better that he should take the subject together, and he was not justified in stating what Government intended to do to any part of the measure. MR. HUME: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us when he will make that statement? The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I propose to introduce a Bill on the subject, as I have already announced, after Christmas. When I do so I will state the whole course which is intended to be pursued by Government. the progress of the works to which their assent had previously been given? VISCOUNT MORPETH said, that subsequent to the passing of the Battersea Bill, several claims had been sent in of so exorbitant a character that it was necessary to bring them before a jury, and some time was necessarily expended in collecting evidence and ascertaining the rights of parties. The first of these cases had been brought before a jury on Friday last; and he was happy to say, that so far the result had not been discouraging to his department, or to the hon. gentleman who acted as surveyor; for inasmuch as the claim put forward was 10,2121., the verdict of the jury was for 7501. After this result he had only to state his hope and expectation that the rest of the claims would be disposed of at a greatly accelerated pace. FOREIGN TARIFFS. MR. NEWDEGATE wished to put a question to the noble Lord, as to the returns which he had moved for on the 24th February last. They were returns relating to MR. GOULBURN asked if the measure the change of the tariffs of foreign counwould also apply to colonial spirits? tries, and also including any changes affectThe CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-ing our customs. Eight months had now QUER said, that what he had stated at an early period of the Session was, that he had directed the attention of the Excise to the various restrictions which were supposed to be unnecessary for the protection of the revenue, and which unduly pressed on industry, and he was in hopes of some remedy, but in no case was the revenue to be affected. BATTERSEA PARK. elapsed since the address for granting these returns had been agreed to. Some confusion seemed to have arisen as to the department which ought to furnish the information to the House, and he wished to ask the noble Lord whether he could afford the House any information relative to the present state of these returns, or to give any prospect of the information being afforded? VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, that a SIR ROBERT INGLIS wished to ask portion of these returns had been presenta question of his noble Friend the First ed towards the close of last Session, and Commissioner of Woods and Forests. He he knew that the other portion had been had been one of the Commissioners, and received, from time to time, at the Foreign took considerable interest in the prosecuOffice. He rather thought that the question of the improvements for making Batter- tion which the hon. Gentleman put, had sea Park, and the embankment of the river reference more peculiarly to the question at Chelsea. The Commissioners made a re- how and by whom such portion of these port in July, 1845, the consent of the Go- tariffs as were in foreign languages were to vernment was granted to this measure, the be translated? He believed that was the necessary notices were given, and the Bill point. Upon that he had to state that of was brought in and received the Royal As-course it was the duty of the Foreign sent on the 3rd August, 1846. Knowing Office, when papers connected with the that the longer delay, the greater would be the cost of making these improvements, demands being made to a most enormous extent, he wished to know from his noble Friend whether he was prepared to state to the House that any measure would be brought forward by Government to hasten transactions of Government were laid before Parliament, to lay them before Parliament by translations, whether they were so laid by an address from the House or by command of the Crown; and there were officers quite competent to do the work properly; but this was a case quite out of the usual course. The House of Commons | in conjunction with the Court of Directors, very properly availed itself of the facilities to send by the present mail any order or which the Foreign Department had, by instructions to the Government or Governmeans of consuls abroad, to obtain infor- ments of India, having reference to a promation connected with the detailed admin- vision for the members of the family of the istration of other countries. That was ob- ex-Rajah, now deceased, and those numertained frequently in printed books and vo- ous dependants, amounting, he believed, luminous papers. The tariffs of other to 700, who had hitherto been entirely decountries, as they had been obtained, had pendent for their subsistence upon the been laid or would be laid upon the table. allowance made to the now deceased RaThe office was limited in the extent of its jah? This was a most important question, establishment, and was really not capable, and he was moved to put it in consequence without materially interfering with the fo- of having received a most urgent letter reign business of the country, of providing from the members of the family, stating the means for effecting these translations; that they were now in circumstances of and it must therefore rest with the House, extreme destitution, not having had, withhe apprehended, to determine in what way out borrowing, the means of defraying the these documents were to be rendered as funeral expenses of the deceased person. useful as they ought to be for the purpose He was anxious to know whether it were in view. It seemed to him quite clear the intention of Her Majesty's Ministers that some person must be employed and to take any immediate steps for securing especially paid for the duty of translating to them, he would not say the means of them; and whether the hon. Gentleman upholding their dignities, but the means of could, according to the practice of the existence? House, move any resolution by which the House would of its own authority authorise the translation, or whether the Crown should be desired to employ persons especially for the purpose, was under the Speaker's direction. MR. C. LEWIS, in answer to the question, begged to state that official intelligence had been received on Saturday last from the Bombay Government of the death of the ex-Rajah of Sattara. He had not himself seen the despatch; it was forwardMR. NEWDEGATE said, that the in-ed to the President, Sir John Hobhouse. formation obtained in those papers was very important. It had been granted by the Crown, and as eight months had now elapsed he thought it right to ask what prospect there was of obtaining this information, and whether the Speaker could suggest any course by which he could bring the subject more properly under the attention of Parliament? MR. SPEAKER said, that it was very difficult for him to answer the question. It was quite clear that the House could not authorise a translation of the tariffs. The custom had been, when returns were presented by the Foreign Office, if the parties in the office would not undertake the translation of the returns, to move an address that the returns should be laid on the table, accompanied by a translation forthwith. THE RAJAH OF SATTARA. MR. G. THOMPSON inquired whether there had been received at the Board of Control any official account of the death of his Highness the ex-Rajah of Sattara? If any such information had been received, whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Commissioners for the Affairs of India, He believed the despatch was confined simply to a statement of the death of the ex-Rajah, and contained no information as to the state of his family, or as to any measures having been taken for the continuance of the pension to the members of his family. He would, however, make inquiry into the subject. The hon. Gentleman had given no notice of putting the question, and therefore he was not prepared to answer it. DENUNCIATIONS FROM THE ALTAR (IRELAND). CAPTAIN HARRIS asked whether the law, as it now stood, would enable Her Majesty's Government to bring to trial those priests whose denunciations from the altar had been immediately followed by the death of the victims? In case of the answer being in the negative, he wished to know whether Her Majesty's Government would ask for measures MR. JOHN O'CONNELL rose to order. He wished to know whether it were competent for an hon. Member to ask a question which inferred a calumny, and was based upon an unproved charge. |