SIR LYON PLAYFAIR said, his authority was not Dr. Carpenter, for the quotation which he read was from Dr. Colin, the Physician General of the French Army. MR. P. A. TAYLOR said, no one really believed that the number of deaths was 22,000; and he had the authority of Dr. Bayard for saying that these were not the numbers that died, but the numbers that had the disease. Again, it was asserted that the whole of the French Army were re-vaccinated before the war; and Dr. Carpenter replied -"Yes; the whole of the original Army." But it must be recollected that those recruits who fought at Orleans and the latter part of the campaign were not revaccinated; and he had the authority of Dr. Oidtmann for saying that the mortality among those who were re-vaccinated was greater than among those who were not. The deaths from smallpox in Paris in 1871 were said to be 1,600; and the illustration of vaccination and small-pox in Paris in that year was one of the most remarkable that had been recorded in history, and an able memoir of it had been written by Dr. Spinzig. In January of that year there was a great fear of a coming epidemic. Re-vaccination was enjoined on everybody; and all Paris was excited on the subject. In one Mairie no less than 2,000 persons presented themselves for re-vaccination. They held the opinion that there was danger in human lymph, and they went direct to the calf. Month after month the epidemic increased, and during the time re-vaccination was in operation the mortality still went on increasing, until the medical authorities decided on vaccinating no more, and, in a few months, the mortality returned to its normal character. MR. J. HOLLOND said, he wished to say a word on the withdrawal of the Amendment. If the Amendment was withdrawn, those of them who, like himself, were in favour of the abolition of cumulative penalties would have no alternative but to vote for the Motion of the hon. Member for Leicester. The Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Edinburgh (Sir Lyon Playfair) meant simply the status quo, whatever interpretation might be put upon it by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board. However beneficent a discovery they might believe vaccination to be, it did not follow that the best means of extending its usefulness throughout the country was to enforce it by pains and penalties; and if he voted for the Motion of the hon. Member for Leicester, it would be because he wished to protest against these cumulative penalties. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. To leave out from the word "House," to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the practice of Vaccination has greatly lessened the mortality from small-pox, and that Laws relating to it, with such modifications as experience may suggest, are necessary for the prevention and mitigation of this fatal and mutilative disease," (Sir Lyon Playfair,) instead thereof. Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The House divided:-Ayes 16; Noes 286 Majority 270.-(Div. List, No. 145.) Main Question, as amended, put. Resolved, That, in the opinion of this House, the practice of Vaccination has greatly lessened the mortality from small-pox, and that Laws relating to it, with such modifications as experience may suggest, are necessary for the prevention and mitigation of this fatal and mutilative disease. HOUSE OF LORDS, Wednesday, 20th June, 1883. backs to the development of Irish fisheries were, first, a want of means on the part of the fishermen to procure suitable and sufficient boats and gear. This drawback was caused in a great measure by the disastrous Famines of 1847 and 1849, Their Lordships met for the despatch and subsequent years; and no portion of Judicial Business only. House adjourned at half past One o'clock, HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, 20th June, 1883. of the Irish people suffered so much in these periods of depression as the fishermen in consequence of the people being obliged to fall back on meal diet, to which fish was not a suitable accompaniment. The result was that the boats and gear had to be sold, and the people were never in a position afterwards to regain them so as to enable them to follow successfully that calling. Now the requirement of loans to enable fishermen to procure boats and gear was to a great extent met by a fund appropriated MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-Second Reading for that special purpose, and it was not Sea Fisheries (Ireland) [31]; Vice-Royalty (Ireland) [37], debate adjourned. Report-Inclosure Provisional Order (Hildersham) [209]; Land Drainage Provisional Order (No. 2) [210]; Metropolis Improvement Provisional Order [173]; Metropolis Improvement Provisional Order (No. 2)* [174]; Metropolis Improvement Provisional Order (No. 3) [175]; Metropolis Improvement Provisional Order (No. 4) [214]; Local Government Provisional Order (No. 10)* [206]; Local Government Provisional Order (No. 6) [195]; Local Government Provisional Order (No. 8) * [199]. Order for Second Reading read. MR. BLAKE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, he thought that at the outset it was well to state that there were two reasons which would recommend the Bill to the majority of the House and to English Members. In the first place, it did not propose to make any claim whatever upon the Imperial Exchequer, and if the Bill became law the British taxpayer would not be asked to contribute anything to carry out the object it had in view; in the next place, the Bill had the approbation of the great majority of Irish Members on both sides of the House. The object of the Bill was to develop an important Irish resource out of purely Irish money. Now, the leading draw intended, for the present at least, to make any request to provide money for that object. In passing he thought he might say that the fund now used to provide those loans was exclusively Irish money, also that already £50,000 had been expended in the last 10 years; and to show the honesty and punctuality of the fishermen, he need only add that of that sum of £50,000 the arrears at present amounted to only £1,000; and this £1,000 the Report of the Board of Works showed that a good deal of it was recoverable. What was at present chiefly required for the development of the Irish fisheries was proper harbour accommodation for fishing boats; but before he proceeded to dwell on that subject, he thought it would be desirable to describe the descriptions of fishing in Ireland. There were two classes of fishing in Ireland. There was migratory fish, which included mackerel, herrings, pilchards, &c.; and there was permanent fish, that was where the fish remained more stationary, such as cod, plaice, ling, hake, &c. Now, the seat of the great mackerel fishing in Ireland was in the South. It had been hitherto carried on along the coast, at Kinsale, with very good results, and that fishing was of so large a character that it had not only attracted English fishermen, but also many Manx and Scotch fishermen, and some French fishermen came there also. As regarded the habits of migratory fish, the pilchard afforded a remarkable example. About 100 years ago there was a great pilchard fishery on the coast of Cork; but for some unaccountable reason they | Committee a few days ago they had passed over to Cornwall, and Irishmen the Scotch Inspector of Fisheries, and went over there to teach the Cornish he stated that there was scarcely five people how to capture and cure it. Some miles of the Scotch coast that had not a years ago, however, the pilchards had harbour, and that harbours were rarely abandoned the Cornish coast and gone 10 miles apart; and the consequence was again to Ireland; but, in the intervening so much advantage to the Scotch fisheryears, the Irish fishermen had got out of men, that the amount of fish caught on the habit of curing pilchards, and the con- the coast of Aberdeen itself exceeded in sequence was that these fish remained un- value the rental of the entire county of captured on the coast of the County Cork. Aberdeen. Let the House turn its attenHitherto mackerel kept near to Kinsale; tion now to the herring fisheries which but now it had moved more to the West, were to be found on the East Coast of and was to be found in great quantities Ireland, and it would find another illusoff the coasts of Kerry and Clare, where tration of the uncertain habits of mithere were not sufficient harbours of a gratory fish. Mighty shoals of herrings good character to afford shelter to the were found some years ago on the Galboats fishing for mackerel. Migratory way coast, and also on the coast of fish afforded an illustration of the pro- Donegal, and so important were the verb, "Make hay while the sun shines." Donegal fisheries that the Irish ParliaThe fish were to be found in one place ment spent large sums in making harfor a time, and if they were not cap- bours there and in facilitating the transtured immediately they might move port of fish through the country, and off again to some other point. In the in this way hundreds of thousands of County Clare, which was represented pounds were realized by the people of by his hon. and gallant Friend opposite Donegal before the Union. Some years (Captain O'Shea), there was a harbour since, however, the herrings "sought called Carrigaholt, about 12 miles up fresh fields and pastures new," and now the Shannon, and in 1881 about £28,000 the coasts of Donegal and Galway were worth of mackerel was brought in there; almost abandoned by them, and nearly but, in consequence of the want of ac- the whole of the herring fishing of imcommodation for the boats, the fish had portance was on the East Coast, where to remain there a great length of time there was insufficient harbour accomwithout being landed. And so the boats modation. Now he came to the fishing were delayed often three times as long banks where certain classes of fish_reas they ought from the fishing grounds; mained permanently. There were in Ireand he had the authority of Mr. Brady, land several important fishing banks. the experienced Inspector of Irish There was the "Nymph Bank," running Fisheries, for stating that if there was from the coast of Wexford to the coast sufficient accommodation at Carrigaholt, of Cork, so called because it was dislast year £100,000 worth of fish would covered by the cruiser Nymph. Fifty have been brought in there; so that years ago this bank was considered of owing to the want of accommodation so much importance that a Company with £80,000 worth of fish had been lost to a capital of £50,000 was formed in the fishermen and consumers. Along England for the purpose of fishing it; that line of coast, from Carrigaholt to but so great was the jealously caused by Liscannor, County Clare, there was no the project amongst English fishermen, harbour for 30 miles; there was no suit that representations were made to Parliaable harbour, in fact, from the mouth of ment of the injury it would do to the the Shannon to Galway Bay, a dis- English fishing industry, and, incretance of 70 miles, for large fishing dible as it might seem, the Bill was craft. This was only an illustration of thrown out by the House of Commons what might be said of other long when it was introduced in 1804, and the stretches of coast without harbours, opportunity of properly developing that while fish abounded outside, and num- great fishing bank was ever since lost. bers of hardy and industrious men were Next there was a very important bank ready to reap the rich harvest of the of ling and other fish on the Kerry coast; sea if they only had shelter for boats. and coming along by Galway, Clare, and Now, let them see what was the state of Mayo there were other important banks the Scotch coast. Before the Harbours frequented by permanent fish. Going "The fisheries on the coast of Ireland offer a around by Donegal there were other tion, and the great advantage the people mighty banks, and some from Tory would derive from it. Many of these Island to the coast of Londonderry. harbours, the Report stated, would not These were not a half, perhaps not a require any large expenditure to put tenth part, of the resources of Ireland them in a proper condition, but, small in the way of fisheries. In 1837 a Bill, as the expenditure would be, it was enfounded on the recommendation of a tirely beyond the means of the localities Royal Commission, was introduced by to raise it. He was glad to say he had the Government, which was calculated to a very much higher authority, as far as resuscitate the fisheries; but, again, a rank was concerned, to quote upon the Bill was abandoned, which promised to desirability of establishing fishery hardo much good for the Irish fishermen, bours around the coast of Ireland. In in the interests of the Scotch fisheries. the paper which the Prince of Wales Thus the Irish fishermen had had to read yesterday at the Fisheries Conferstruggle against very adverse influences, ence on behalf of the Duke of Edinburgh, and this now gave them a stronger claim His Royal Highness saidto be afforded the opportunity of prosecuting their industry successfully. There was no reason to suppose that there was not as much fish on the Irish coast as formerly; but the fact was, that while the capture by English fishermen amounted to about £8,000,000 worth, and by Scotch fishermen to £3,000,000 worth, that taken immediately off the coast of Ireland was only £500,000 a-year, while a considerable portion of even that was taken by fishermen not belonging to Ireland, showing how inadequately the Irish coast was fished. He would now pass on to the harbours that were recommended for the development of the industry. There were 15 maritime counties in Ireland, and there were recommendations by the Inspectors with regard to 14 of them for improving and increasing harbour accommodation. Now, to show the great desire of the Irish fishermen to prosecute their calling he had only to say that there were applications made for the improvement and construction of 100 harbours, and of those the Inspectors had recommended upwards of 70 as of pressing necessity, at a cost of over £250,000 namely, Cork, 10; Clare, 9; Donegal, 15; Down, 2; Galway, 9; Kerry, 6; Londonderry, 1; Louth, 2; Mayo, 6; Sligo 2; Waterford, 6; Wexford, 2; and Wicklow, 2. The Bill proposed to take the sum necessary for those works from the Church Surplus Fund; and, as that relieved the British taxpayer from any charge in the matter, he hoped the Government would consent to this expenditure of Irish money for Irish purposes. The Report of the Fishery Inspectors for last year, and, indeed, for many years past, showed the great necessity there was for increased harbour accommoda Mr. Blake wide field of enterprize, and their development would tend to promote the welfare of the Irish people. Already the English, Manx, and Scotch have commenced to find their way to the West boats which prosecute the mackerel fisheries Coast of Ireland, where they have obtained remunerative returns for their labours. Within the last three years Dingle Bay has become a considerable rendezvous of the mackerel drift periment was first tried in 1881, and was so sucboats for the early season's fishery. The excessful that increasing numbers of boats have resorted there in the two following years, making it their head-quarters for the prosecution of the deep-sea drift fishing, and sending their fish by steamer to the English markets. The necessities of the crews of these boats must undoubtedly give a considerable stimulus to local traffic, and contribute towards the prosperity of the surrounding district; but I hope gradual extension of an organized system of this will not be the only result. I look for the fisheries up and down the whole West Coast of Ireland, which is singularly favoured in the possession of numerous natural harbours most suitable for fishing ports if the inhabitants of yield them a far more abundant harvest than their rocky and barren soil will give-a harvest practically inexhaustible, always ripe and ready for the sickle." those coasts were to realize that the sea will He also stated that Ireland was well furnished with natural harbours. That was the fact to some extent; but around the circuit of Ireland, which was 2,500 miles, there was a great deficiency of natural harbours which did not require some outlay to render them complete. There were numerous creeks which fishermen utilized; but, owing to the tempestuous character of the sea along the coast, breakwaters were essential, in addition, in many places. Before the Famine years there were exactly five times the number of men and three times the number of boats engaged in the Irish fisheries. The reason for this was-and he wished to impress this point upon the House-the Famine of 1848 and 1849 had obliged thousands of the fishing population to abandon their occupation, and part with their boats and gear, and most of them had never since been able to obtain others. Even now, those having boats and willing to work were obliged to live for a great part of the year in enforced idleness owing to the want of suitable harbours. They had not harbours which afforded them sufficient shelter. If the weather was at all strong, the fishermen were afraid to go to sea, knowing the difficulty they would have in getting back again. Weather of a certain roughness was suitable for fishing purposes; but it frequently happened that before they had had time to make any consider able haul the men became alarmed at the prospect of rougher weather, and returned to land. In a great number of instances where harbours had been made, important results had followed from the increased number that had gone to fishing pursuits with advantage; and in places where harbours had been improved, the fishermen had often been enabled to make two additional fishings in one day. The testimony that was given by His Royal Highness was, he thought, of a most satisfactory character, as showing what could be accomplished by having suitable harbours around the coast, and showing also that the non-development of the fisheries did not arise from any indisposition on the part of the people to fish. They required very much larger boats and improved harbours. The coast of Ireland had always been celebrated for the quantity of fish in the seas around it. The Danes were induced to invade the country on account of the large quantities of fish resorting to its shores, and English Monarchs in the 16th century received large sums from some foreign Potentates who desired to purchase for their subjects the right of fishing in those waters. The French and Flemish fishermen fished on the Irish coast whenever permitted. The best fishing localities were handed over to foreigners for a consideration, and efforts were even made to prevent Irishmen themselves from deriving benefit from their fisheries. The Cromwellian Parliament was inundated with Petitions from English fishing stations praying that the fisheries of Ireland might be discouraged on account of the great injury caused by the competition of Irish fishermen to the trade of the English fishermen abroad. The result was that the fishermen were almost exterminated by the effects of the "transplanting law." Oliver Cromwell, who was a very practical person, sent some cargoes of Irish fishermen to Barbados, and other West India Islands, where they were sold at a good price to the planters, and where signs of their presence survived to this day. Not many years ago, for example, an Irish sergeant who had arrived in the principal port of Barbados with his regiment was surprised to hear himself greeted with the words "God save you," uttered in the Irish language by a negro who had boarded the ship. Concluding that the negro must be an Irishman, the gallant sergeant asked him how long he had been in Barbados. "Three months," replied the negro, who had come from a neighbouring island; and the sergeant, thinking that his friend's complexion had been changed from white to black in so short a time by the scorching sun, rushed, in great excitement, into the cabin where his wife and family were in order to have a last look at their fair faces before the commencement of the change which he anticipated would be caused in the hue of their skins by the baneful climate. The Irish Parliament, during its brief existence, did a great deal to promote the Irish fisheries, and the year before the Union was the most flourishing the Irish fisheries had for a long time. It gave large sums for the making of suitable harbours, and also for means of inland transport; but four years after the Union, as he had mentioned, the Bill to promote the fishing of the South-East Coast was thrown out of the House by a majority of 1. In 1832 there was a Royal Commission appointed to report on the condition and best means for improving the Irish Sea Fisheries, and its chief recommendations were embodied in a Bill; but on the day before the second reading was to be proposed the Duke of Sutherland headed a hostile deputation from Scotland to the Premier, and the Bill was abandoned. These were among the discouragements which the Irish fisheries had suffered; but, notwithstanding them, the Irish fishermen, by their own efforts, had placed the fisheries before the Famine in a fairly flourishing condition, |