Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.

VICE-ROYALTY (IRELAND) BILL. (Mr. Justin M'Carthy, Mr. Richard Power, Mr. O'Kelly, Mr. Kenny.)

[BILL 37.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read.

when he said that this was simply a | at the attitude which the Government proposal to deal in a certain way with had taken on this question. the Surplus of the Irish Church Funds, provided that Surplus existed; and even this he qualified by saying he thought the House, in passing the second reading, would be merely expressing the general opinion that, assuming the works were required and fund sufficient, this was not an unreasonable measure. He (Mr. Childers) was able to go somewhat further than his hon. Friend (Mr. Courtney). He had always been in favour of some special form of assistance to Irish fisheries, and had expressed that opinion in his days of freedom from Office. While, therefore, he entirely concurred in the objections to the details of this Bill which his hon. Friend had so forcibly stated, he was able to say that, provided the Irish Church Fund would bear the proposed charge, the sites for harbours to be assisted were recommended by the Committee now sitting, and in each case approved by the Government. He thought the Government ought not, on the question of principle, to object to the second reading of the Bill, but that it was their duty to examine the clauses and amend them before the next stage. Upon that understanding he would, on behalf of the Government, assent to the second reading. There were details in the Bill as to the constitution of the managing body, the condition of grants and advances, and other matters, with some of which he could not agree, and others which he could not understand; upon these and other questions he must reserve his right of action in Committee.

MR. PARNELL said, he was glad that the right hon. Gentleman, with his usual good feeling on Irish questions, had assented to the second reading of the Bill, reserving his right of discussing the details in Committee. The Irish Members were quite as desirous as the Secretary to the Treasury that money coming from the Irish Church Fund should be properly spent, and not frittered away in little jobs on the Coast. They thought the Lord Lieutenant would be able to choose Commissioners from amongst the Inspectors of Irish Fisheries, who would be able to point out the harbours that should be dealt with. He would not detain the House further than to express, on behalf of himself and the other Irish Members, his great pleasure

The Chance lor of the Exchequer

MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the Bill had for its purpose the abolition of the Office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. The Bill consisted really of but three clauses-the first declaring that on and after January 1, 1884, the Office should be abolished; the second, that the powers of the Office should be transferred to a Secretary of State; and the third, that such Secretary of State should be a Member of the House, representing an Irish constituency. If the House was not prepared to accept the latter proposition, he would not press it in Committee, and would merely ask them to affirm the principle that the Office should be abolished. The House was well aware that this was not the first time a proposition of the kind had been made. A proposal of the same nature had been introduced, some 30 odd years ago, by the late Earl Russell, then Lord John Russell, in the House of Commons. That proposal had the same purpose in view, but was of a more complicated character. It proposed to make arrangements to take effect, provided Her Majesty in Council. abolished the Office of Lord Lieutenant; but it did not propose to abolish the Office at a stroke. That measure was carried to a second reading with a very large majority in its favour; but was, nevertheless, not carried beyond that stage. The reason of its not getting beyond a second reading was partly owing to the fact that Government found foreign questions attracting too much attention; but chiefly on count of the very doubtful support accorded to it by the Irish Members of that day. Many Irish Members voted. against the measure. and voting which took place in that debate formed a curiously interesting study in Irish politics. He might call the attention of the House to the fact

ac

The speaking

that the late Earl Russell made a some- | ber of the Imperial Parliament, was what remarkable statement on that o3casion. He said

no serious attempt was made to get | servility, and which must have taken rid of the Office. What he now pro- great pains on the parts of successive posed to do, certainly at no unreason- Sovereigns to root out. Then came the able length, was to show that the Office days of Cromwell, and from that period did no positive good either to England they might trace the decline of Ireland. or Ireland, but that it did a great deal It seemed to him that since that period of positive and negative harm; that the Irish officials were either incapable it did not, as many supposed, unite the or worthless men, doing neither good people of Ireland with those of England, nor harm ; or men who, when they moved or cause the authority of the Crown to be at all, produced a baleful effect upon more respected; but rather tended to Ireland and England. There were, bring it into something approaching dis- however, two or three honourable-he respect. He hoped to show that where should even say illustrious-examples. the authority was exercised much it Take one man-Lord Chesterfield tended to make rather ridiculous that who was sent to Ireland on the most inwhich it ought to elevate in public esti- auspicious occasion. Chesterfield saw, mation; and he hoped to persuade some with the instinct of genius, that Ireof his own countrymen that the Office in land was a country which must be nowise tended to maintain the national governed according to Irish ideas, or spirit, but rather to degrade, humi- it could never be governed at all; liate, and extinguish that national senti- and to that task he set himself in ment. If they reviewed the history of a way which no Irish official ever did the Irish Viceroys they would find them before or since. He could not repeal to have been either men who did nothing the Penal Laws; but he took good care or men whose energy resulted in evil that they were never put in operation. effects to England and Ireland. It was He took care that whatever discontent a remarkable fact that after the Reign of there was should be allayed and not Elizabeth, and during a certain portion embittered. Needless to say, the old of the Reign of James I., there sprang up ascendency class assailed him with all in Ireland a sudden and wide-spread the energy and bigotry which they could growth of prosperity which then pro- command, with the view of bringing mised to be lasting. He would trouble him into disrepute at the Royal Court. the House with a sentence or two de- He established so much tranquillity scriptive of the state of Ireland at that and contentment in Ireland that at this period. Clarendon, in the first book of very time, instead of asking for more his history, said of Ireland before the troops for Ireland, he sent four regiCivil Warments away to assist the Royal troops against the Pretender in Scotland. He was allowed to have his way while the danger of the rebellion lasted; but at the very moment the danger was over the counsels of the ascendency Party in England prevailed, and Chesterfield was recalled. He walked to the place of embarkment surrounded by a cheering populace, who asked him to return as soon as possible. He never at any time seemed to have required police protection. His case was an instance of how a sincere and high-minded man, anxious to do good for the country, was sacrificed to the cabals of English Parties. The same observation might apply to the case of Lord Fitzwilliam. When Lord Fitzwilliam was recalled the Catholics of Ireland saw that their hopes were gone, and the result was the outbreak of 1798. After that came the Union and other painful events with which they were all so familiar. These were striking and

"Ireland, which had been a sponge to draw and a gulf to swallow all that could be spared and all that could be got from England, merely to keep the reputation of a Kingdom, attained to that good degree of husbandry and government that it not only subsisted of itself and gave this Kingdom all that it might have expected from it, but really increased the Revenue of the Crown £40,000 or £50,000 a-year, besides being of considerable advantage to the people by the traffic and trade from thence. Arts and sciences were fruitfully planted there, and the whole nation was beginning to be so civilized that it was a jewel of great lustre in the Royal

diadem."

Were there any other years of Irish history, excepting, perhaps, a few years before the Union, when such a description would apply? But when the Civil War broke out, Ireland became the victim of English quarrels. It chose to remain loyal to a King who, perhaps, deserved little loyalty. The Irish people had been long characterized by a passion for Royalty which he should almost call

Mr. Justin M'Carthy

remarkable instances in which Viceroys | loyalty. The result of that was, unwere liable to be recalled, and the hopes doubtedly, to get round Dublin Castle of the country sacrificed to some sudden or the Viceregal Lodge a body of supmove in partizan policy in England. He porters whom the great body of the did not think he could mention any Irish people regarded as hostile to the other really good Viceroys. The Vice- national sentiments; and anyone could roys never had the power given to them see that the longer this continued the of carrying out anything in the shape more and more alien must the Viceof reform, even if they had been inclined royalty become to the feelings of the to do so. Lord Carlisle was popular, to Irish people. They had a striking illusa certain extent, because he gave good tration not long since of how the Vicedances and danced well; but in Ire- roy and those around him formed one land they wanted a statesman, and not little State and the people of Ireland a dancing master. Lord Clarendon another. Last autumn the Centenary of adopted the means of governing Ire- O'Connell was celebrated, and on that land by a scurrilous newspaper pub- occasion an Exhibition of Irish manulished in Dublin at the time-a paper factures and products was opened. He the like of which he did not think at had the pleasure of being in Dublin on present existed in any part of the that occasion, and he never saw a more civilized world. It was infamous in striking spectacle. If ever there was a the blackest sense of the word. It national ceremonial politically, indusmade abominable charges against men trially, or even sentimentally, if they and women, and levied black mail from wished, it was the ceremonial in questhem if they were weak enough to yield. tion. It represented the whole interests This paper was hired to write up law of the Irish nation. Where, then, was and order and abuse the enemies of the the Irish Viceroy? The position of the Crown it was converted into a sort Viceroy on that occasion might well be of Government organ, paid for by the likened to the position of an Austrian comCrown. This arrangement continued mandant in a Venetian town in former until the proprietor of the paper de- days. He sat apart in the Castle, or the manded too much money, and the matter Viceregal Lodge, practically alienated was taken into a Court of Law, where from everything connected with the inthe Viceroy was obliged to admit that terests of the Irish people. He (Mr. he had hired the proprietor of this Justin M'Carthy) was very much struck paper to make accusations against re- by the marvellous change in the posispectable and honourable men in Dub- tion of affairs. The people kept order lin. It would be something if they had for themselves. They needed no assista Secretary of State governing Ireland ance, and if the Viceroy did not appear whom they could see sitting on the Bench himself, he certainly did not trouble the opposite, and whom Irish Members could people much with his Police Force. The examine as to his policy, and who could right hon. and learned Gentleman the come under the censure of the House if Member for the University of Dublin he did wrong. Some years ago he had (Mr. Plunket) might suggest that the heard the present Prime Minister ex- patronage of the Viceroy had been replain, in a lecture, the evil caused injected. He (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) did our Colonies by the practice which go- not care if the patronage of the authovernors followed by surrounding them-rities was rejected, because that only selves with a "British Party." The showed how little sympathy there was result of the practice was that the Go-between the people and the official who verning Body was merely suspected of being hostile to the Colonists. Now, that was precisely the effect of the Viceregal system in Ireland. The Viceroy in Ireland was supposed to confer titles and distribute rewards for something or other. He gave away offices, and invited the wives and daughters of a certain class in Ireland to the Castle; and in this way he was supposed to impress on them the stamp of respectability and

was placed over them. If in another country the patronage of the Government were rejected by the people on an occasion of that kind, what would be thought? Why, that between the people and their rulers there was an almost impassable gulf. The people of Ireland had nothing to do with the Viceroy. As far as they were concerned, they had shaken the whole traditions of the Office away from them-they did not want to

go to his dances or dinners. Even when the Office of Viceroy did positively neither good nor harm, it stood in the way of good that might be done, thus negatively doing harm. Socially it did harm, because it created in Dublin a class of "flunkies," and encouraged sycophancy. This kind of social demoralizing influence produced some political evil by separating still farther class from class, and at last driving the people to that degree of antagonism that they were inclined to regard anyone who had friendly relations with the Viceregal Party as necessarily inimical to all the national aspirations. He hoped that the House would now accept the policy approved by Lord John Russell. Let the House say, as had been said before-"Abolish this mock dignity- this sham rulership-and give us a Secretary of State, who will be answerable to the House of Commons." If the right hon. Gentleman would rise in his place and say that Her Majesty's Ministers did think it worth while to make this change at a time like the present, because they believed much greater changes were necessarily near at hand, and that they hoped before long to be able to say that Ireland was entitled to a measure of self-government, he would not press his Bill to a Division. As, however, he felt he could hardly expect any such offer as that to be made, or any such argument to be used, he would have to press his Motion for the second reading to a Division, and endeavour to get the sense of the House in its favour once more. What he asked the House to do was to put an end to a wretched, decaying, and demoralizing system. The system, as it stood, was only a delusion to the English Members, a mockery to the Members for Ireland, and a snare to the simpleminded noblemen who seemed occasionally to fancy that by a few Court dinners they could charm away Connemara distress, and that by patronizing a few dozen shopkeepers in Dublin they were conciliating the hearts of the nation. He begged to move the second reading of the Bill.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time." (Mr. Justin M Carthy.)

MR. J. N. RICHARDSON, in moving that the Bill be read a second time that

Mr. Justin M'Carthy

day three months, said, he had listened with very great interest to the speech of his hon. Friend-he had listened to him with the interest which always accompanied any remarks of his in that House on historical subjects. He hoped his hon. Friend would believe that he was just as sincerely desirous of seeing legislation for the benefit of their common country as he himself was. This was a subject on which there was room for very diverse opinions; and though one might well be liable in after times to change one's mind upon it, at the present moment he must say that his feelings upon the matter were so strong that he could not agree with the proposal now before the House. As to the occurrence in Dublin in the autumn of last year, he could not follow his hon. Friend into the particulars, as he was not familiar with the circumstances; but he would just observe to the House that the Viceroy in Ireland and the Chief Secretary for Ireland and the Secretary of State as mentioned in the Bill were very much in the position of Ulster Members at times, for they represented to a certain extent two wings. He could quite understand the displeasure with which a certain portion of the Irish community would regard the refusal of a Viceroy to attend a celebration such as that mentioned by his hon. Friend; but it was well to look at the other side of the question. If the Viceroy had been asked to go up to the North of Ireland and to attend the celebration at Belfast in commemoration of some persons with whom a section of the people in the North sympathized very largely, he would no doubt have refused, very properly, because otherwise he would be outraging the sentiments of a large number of people over whom he was supposed to rule in the South of Ireland. Thus he could quite believe that a somewhat similar feeling would prevent the Viceroy from taking part in a celebration which would outrage the feelings of persons in the North of Ireland. Of course, he only mentioned this for what it was worth; but it seemed to him that the system of Party government which so entirely appeared to suit the populace of England and Scotland in many ways did not suit the populace of a very large part of Ireland. If a grievance existed in Great Britain a party rose up willing to remedy