a matter that might be necessary as a point of policy to be done; but it ought not to be done hastily, or with a light heart. If they passed this proposal they would be simply inflicting heavy burdens upon the main line railways, which, in the end, the public would find to be practically imposed upon themselves, when they came to pay the increased fares, and experienced the diminished accommodation which would probably be the result. Although he confessed that his feeling was rather against it, he was anxious not to prejudice the consideration of a subject upon which sufficient argument had not been heard; and it was not the duty of Parliament, permanently, to take the course proposed, without giving to so grave a matter the utmost consideration in its power. For these reasons, he should support the view of the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack. EARL GRANVILLE said, that the statement of the noble Marquess was not quite accurate. He had said this amended Standing Order had been brought forward in the other House by the Government, and supported by them. The fact, however, was that the proposition was made, not by the Government, but by the Chairman of Committees in the other House; and it was supported by Mr. Chamberlain, who had expressly stated that he did not speak for the Government in the matter, though, he added, most of his Colleagues agreed with him in favour of the change. When the noble Marquess criticized apparent differences of opinion, it must be remembered that that was not the first time, this Session, that such differences had been exhibited by the speeches of the noble Marquess and those of the noble and learned Earl by his side (Earl Cairns). In this matter they had nothing to do with any question as between old and new railways. The Legislature had thought fit to impose the conditions on which Railway Companies could borrow money, and a good many years ago Parliament came to the conclusion that it was unsound in principle to sanction a nominal payment of interest, which was only a return of a portion of the capital. For his own part, he (Earl Granville) thought it was a matter that affected this House very much, as well as the other House; and, therefore, it was one that ought to be very carefully considered. In these circumstances, he was inclined to agree with his noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) that the question should be left entirely open; and he could not see why the necessary consideration should not be obtained by the simple adoption of the Amendment of the noble Lord behind him (Lord Auckland). He could not conceive any question which could possibly bear less of a Party character than this; and, individually, he should vote for that noble Lord's Amendment. EARL CAIRNS said, he was under the impression that this was a proposal which was supported by the Government; and he thought he was justified in saying that the Government came there in order to maintain, as they had maintained in the other House, the alteration of the Standing Order. EARL GRANVILLE: Oh, no! I said it was not supported by the Government as a Government. EARL CAIRNS said, it was supported by Mr. Chamberlain; and what was Mr. Chamberlain? He was the President of the Board of Trade, and, in that capacity, he was at the head of the Railway Department of the country, for the Board of Trade was practically the Railway Department. Did the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) mean to say it was competent for the President of the Railway Department to support a proposition in the House of Commons, and then to turn round and say it had not been supported by the Government? Did he not commit the Government, by what he said in regard to the Business of that Department? What would the noble Earl himself (Earl Granville), or the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies (the Earl of Derby), think, if either of them answered a Question in regard to the Business of his Department, and then Mr. Chamberlain, or someone else, were to say "Oh! the noble Earl did not speak on behalf of the Government?" Could the other Members of the Government throw over the foreign policy of the noble Earl, and say it was not their policy? Or could they take up a similar attitude with regard to the policy of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies? What was the Board of Trade for, except to give advice to the House of Commons, or the House of Lords, upon the policy that ought to be pursued in regard to railway matters. And it was absurd to say that, when the President of the Board of Trade advised Parlia ment on these matters, he did not speak He on behalf of the Government. (Earl Cairns) was entitled to view this as a proposition of the Government; and he had ventured to suggest an Amendment which would remove some of the objections to the proposal. If it was not their proposition, by no means let it be adopted. THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY said, he wished to point out that that was not a proposition of the Government which they now repudiated. It had never been their proposal. It was simply a question of Standing Orders; and it had never been the custom of the Government of the day to take up these questions, but rather to leave them to the discretion of the House. It seemed to him contrary to all sound practice, besides being inconvenient, that such matters should be made Party questions; and he maintained that, in a matter of this kind, they were justified in acting individually. A Bill to consolidate the Accounting Departments of the Supreme Court of Judicature; Motion (The Chairman of Committees) and for other purposes-Was presented by The negativod. LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1. (No. 130.) Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. Dodds.) MR. E. STANHOPE wished to make a few remarks before these Bills were read a second time. He had hoped that some Representative of the Board of Trade would have been present, and in the absence of any Representative of that Board he would move the Adjournment of the debate. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned." --(Mr. E. Stanhope.) Question put, and agreed to. Debate adjourned till To-morrow. Report in the case of the Criminal Code (Indictable Offences Procedure) Bill; Special Report brought up, and read as followeth : SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY reported from the Standing Committee on Law and Courts of Justice, and Legal Procedure, to whom the Criminal Code referred, That they had agreed to the (Indictable Offences Procedure Bill) was following Special Report: "The Committee, having completed the consideration of the Court of Criminal Appeal Bill, commenced the consideration of the Criminal Code (Indictable Offences Procedure) Bill on the 5th instant, and proceeded therewith on the 7th, 12th, 14th, 19th, and 21st instant. "During such consideration Clause 1 was agreed to without amendment; Clauses 3, 7, 10, and 11 were agreed to with amendments; the consideration of Clauses 2, 4, and 5 was postponed; Clauses 6, 8, and 9 were struck out of the Bill. Notice has already been given of 390 amendments to be moved on the remaining 120 Clauses of the Bill. "The Committee are of opinion that there is no prospect of their being able to consider the remaining Clauses of the Bill, or any substantial portion of them, so as to allow the Bill to be reported to sion as would afford the House an opthe House at such a period of the Sesportunity of duly considering the Bill, and therefore the Committee have resolved not to proceed further with the consideration of the Bill." Special Report to be printed. [No. 225.1 Bill reported from the Standing Committee on Law and Courts of Justice, and Legal Procedure; Report to lie upon the Table. Minutes of Proceeding to be printed. [No. 226.] PARLIAMENT-COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEAL BILL. Bill reported from the Standing Committee on Law and Courts of Justice, and Legal Procedure; Report to lie upon the Table. Bill, as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 244.] QUESTIONS. LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-JAMES ticular size of steamer exempt from carrying lights at night when under steam and near the coast or in a bay or river; if the steamer employed watching the salmon boat fishing in Lough Foyle goes about constantly without any lights; and, whether this steamer is exempted; and, if not, whether any steps will be taken to protect the fishermen from the constant danger of being run down by this vessel? MR. CHAMBERLAIN, in reply, said, that all sea-going ships, without reference to size, were required by law to carry red and green side lights. In the particular case referred to he was informed that in order to watch the fishe MR. MAYNE asked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether he is aware that James Carey has written from Kilmainham Gaol to the Town Clerk of Dublin, announcing his intention of taking his seat as a member of the Dublin Town Council at the next meeting of that body, and that the Letter was written on Government stamped paper, and initialed by the Governor of the Gaol; whether the said James Carey has received Her Ma-ries these lights were dispensed with, jesty's pardon for the murders of which he has declared himself on oath to have been guilty; whether, if not pardoned, Carey is not now in the position of a person awaiting trial; whether it is not legally in the power of the Executive to put him upon trial for his life; and, whether, if the Government determine to recommend to Her Majesty to pardon Carey, they intend imposing any conditions upon him, before the pardon is granted, as to quitting and remaining out of the Country, or otherwise? THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORTER): It is a fact, I believe, that James Carey has written from Kilmainham Gaol the letter which is referred to in the Question. That letter was written on paper which bore the stamp, and which was initialed by the Governor of the gaol; but there is no significance in this fact, as all persons in the gaol when they write letters for outside are furnished with paper, and the said letters are initialed by the Go vernor. James Carey has not received any formal pardon from Her Majesty's Government, and he is, of course, in the position of a person liable to be tried for the offence he has admitted to have committed. The consideration of the matter is at present before His Excellency; and I feel sure His Excellency will give great attention to the question of imposing conditions such as are referred to before any pardon is given to him. FISHERIES (IRELAND)-SALMON FISH ING IN LOUGH FOYLE. MR. KENNY asked the President of the Board of Trade, If there is any par and in police boats the lights were also sometimes taken down. The Board of Trade did not consider the matter called for interference on their part. INDIA-CRIMINAL CODE PROCEDURE AMENDMENT BILL. MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT asked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether, in view of the great importance of having the official Reports upon Mr. Ilbert's Jurisdiction Bill (India) in possession of the House before it rises, he will now telegraph to the Indian Government for the Reports from Bengal and Assam which have been already received; whether he can confirm the statement of The Times Correspondent that the great majority of these Reports are against the Bill; and, whether Her Majesty's Government have received any confirmation of the alarming reports as to race antagonism shown by Natives letter of The Times Calcutta Corretowards Europeans, described in the spondent of Monday the 25th? MR. J. K. CROSS: I must ask the Reports should be sent home without I must ask the hon. Gentleman to let me have an opportunity of seeing the Reports before giving any opinion as to whether they do or do not confirm the statement of The Times Correspondent. Her Majesty's Government have not received any confirmation of the alarming reports referred to by the hon. Gentleman. MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: The hon. Gentleman asked me to have patience. I would ask him whether it would not greatly facilitate the production of these Reports if they were telegraphed for; and whether, in fact, three weeks would not be saved? MR. J. K. CROSS: I have told the hon. Member that the Indian Government are well aware how anxious we are to have these Reports sent home as soon as possible, and it would, therefore, not expedite matters at all to telegraph for them. SOUTH AFRICA-THE TRANSVAAL BECHUANALAND. people of the Transvaal." There the hon. Member will find all the information he wants. But the aspect of the case as presented by the Transvaalers themselves will best be seen by reference to a later Blue Book-C. 1342, 1876which contains a Memorandum drawn up for the Secretary of State by President Burgers, who in 1875 was in England on some financial business. In it he admits the past existence of kidnapping and slave-dealing practices; but says that since the Pretorius party finally prevailed in 1865 the abuses have been fairly put down, and he challenges and appeals to Chiefs living under the Republic as to their good treatment. Lord Carnarvon, writing from the Colonial Office, communicated this Memorandum to the Governor of the Cape, with an expression of his satisfaction at its con tents. -EXTENSION TO THE COLO NIES. would take into his consideration the MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT asked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether it is a fact, as stated in Thursday's papers, that Dr. Jorissen, POST OFFICE-POSTAL ORDER SYSTEM the Attorney General for the Transvaal, has had an interview with Lord Derby, and has stated that the moral responsiMR. RANKIN asked the Postmaster bility for all the troubles in BechuanaGeneral, Whether, in the interests of land rests upon Sir Hercules Robinson; that the main cause for those troubles emigrants and others who desire to is to be looked for in inter- tribal transmit small sums of money either to struggles; that there is not, and has or from this Country to the Colonies, he not been for thirty years past, anything desirability of extending the Postal like "veiled slavery" in the Transvaal; Order system to the Colonies, or of that the native chiefs in Bechuanaland spontaneously offered to the Transvaal lessening the cost of Post Office Orders? Government to come under its jurisdic-hon. Member I am glad to be able to MR. FAWCETT: In reply to the tion; whether there is any foundation for the above statements; and, whether, state that a Bill is being prepared, which or not, many Despatches proving the I hope shortly to introduce, to authorize existence of "veiled slavery negotiations being entered into with the among the Boers have been sent home from various Colonies for the extension of the British Governors and other reliable Postal Order system to them. persons in South Africa ? NAVY-ISSUE OF THE NAVAL DISCIPLINE ACT, 1866, AS AMENDED. SIR JOHN HAY asked the Secretary to the Admiralty, If he will lay upon the Table a Copy of the Naval Discipline Act of 1866, as it is proposed to be issued to the Navy, when amended by the Naval Discipline and Enlistment Act Amendment Bill now before Parlia MR. EVELYN ASHLEY: The conversation between the Secretary of State and Dr. Jorissen was entirely private and confidential, and therefore I am not able to say anything further about it except this-that with reference to the statements in the Question there seems to be no foundation for them. If Dr. Jorissen did make those statements, I need hardly say that Her Majesty's Go-ment? vernment does not agree with them. As to the last paragraph of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to a Blue Book of 1869, entitled " Correspondence relating to the alleged kidnapping and enslaving of young Africans by the MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, in reply, said, he was willing to meet the wish of the right hon. and gallant Member, and he was in communication with the authorities as to the best means of doing so. |