man could not know how that voter was going to vote. It was the experience of a great number of Members in the House that they had conveyed a number of voters to the poll, and that it was very likely as many as one-third of those voters so conveyed had voted against them. The whole question was ridiculous, because anybody who was sufficiently popular would be able to get a conveyance to the payment. He, however, contended that | secrecy of the ballot, the hon. Gentlepersons could purchase carriages, that they could become owners of carriages, for the express purposes of an election, and there was nothing in the Bill to prevent it. Yesterday, he gave an instance that came within his own experience. In the borough of Warrington, in 1868, his election was seriously imperilled by the fact that a number of conveyances were used by his opponents, conveyances which were lent for the pur-poll if he required it. pose of the election. The Committee must remember that, with regard to all elections, they had to deal with rich people-people owning carriages; and it seemed to him that if the Government were really in earnest to put a stop to the conveyance of voters, they must put a stop to the employment of private carriages. VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE rose amidst cries of" Divide!" He said, he thought he was entitled to say a few words on this matter, considering that all the talk on the clause had come from the opposite side of the House. He was perfectly ready, when the Motion was first put from the Chair, to go to a Division; but since then arguments had been used which certainly demanded an answer. The hon. Member for South-East Lancashire (Mr. Leake) did not seem to have a very grand idea of the independence of voters; because he considered, and he told the Committee so, that the mere fact of riding in a gentleman's cariage was likely to influence the vote of an elector. Such was not his (Viscount Folkestone's) opinion; indeed, he considered the assertion of the hon. Gentleman perfectly unnecessary. He believed that electors, no matter to which Party they belonged, were sufficiently independent not to be influenced by the fact of being conveyed to the poll in someone's private carriage. They might take a horse to the water, but they could not make him drink; they might take a voter to the poll, but they could not make him vote which way they liked. A man would vote which way he pleased; and, what was more, it was impossible to ascertain how he did vote, unless he himself vouchsafed the information. The hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Cowen) might take a voter to the poll in his carriage, and unless they had found the means in Newcastle of breaking through the Mr. Rylands MR. CALLAN, who also rose amidst cries of "Divide!" said, he happened to have constituents as well as the hon. Gentlemen who were howling on the other side of the House, and he had a right to state what he believed was essential for his constituents. Now, the county he represented-Louth-was very mountainous; and in one polling district, out of 190 voters and upwards, there were a great many who had no vehicles whatever, and 50 of them resided more than five or six miles from the polling station. Some of them were 90 years of age; and how could they be expected to go to the poll if a candidate was prohibited to provide a vehicle for the use of such voter ? Were the Committee going to prohibit a neighbour, or a friend, or a candidate's friend, sending their own private carriage for the use of a particular voter ? If they did it would be a monstrous injustice. To call upon some men to walk four or five miles, perhaps in inclement weather, to vote was to practically disenfranchise them. Some of the constituents of the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) would have a walk of seven miles to the polling station if this Amendment was carried. Certainly, the men of Cavan would put themselves to sore straits to vote for his hon. Friend. None of them would vote for a Whig. They detested and hated English Radicals and Whigs so much that if a four-in-hand were sent for them they would not support a man who professed to belong to either of those Parties. He (Mr. Callan) had no doubt, however, that so degraded were some of the voters in the Radical districts in England, that if a gentleman sent his carriage for them they would be induced to vote black was white. It was possible that the prohibition of the use of conveyances would practically disenfranchise a most unworthy and degraded body of electors in England. Such, however, was not the case in Ire land. No matter how many carriages | Gentleman's Amendment that it would were sent for the electors, they would not be legal for a man to convey a friend always vote for the Nationalist candi- to the poll. ["No, no!"] Well, that date. He was, therefore, anxious that was how he read the Amendment. It they should provide honest and patriotic waselectors with a free conveyance to the poll. MR. MONTAGUE GUEST urged upon the Attorney General the impor tance of this Amendment. His noble Friend opposite (Viscount Folkestone) had said just now that he did not think the conveyance of voters to the poll had influenced the vote of a single man. It, however, stood to reason that those who had got the greatest number of carriages had got the greatest number of carriages were certainly able to bring up to the poll the greatest number of voters. If the election was to be pure, an engine of corruption ought not to be put in the hands of one candidate who could afford to employ it, as against the candidate who could not so afford. Under the circumstances, he (Mr. Guest) thought "Any person who shall lend his own carriage, or hire or provide other carriages to convey voters to or from the poll shall be guilty of an illegal practice, but this shall not prevent any person using his own carriage for the conveyance of himself and any other person in company with him to vote." It Anyhow, he must say that the Amendment was very obscurely worded. appeared that if he (Lord Randolph Churchill) was in his own carriage, he could convey the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Cowen) to the poll; but if he did not wish to return, he could not send his friend back in the carriage. It being ten minutes before Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to report Progress; Committee to sit again upon Thursday. SELECTION. Leave given to the Committee of Selection to make a Special Report : voters should be allowed to find their own way to the poll. It generally happened that one candidate obtained the sympathy of those who had a large number of carriages. If those carriages were placed at the disposal of the candidate. Sir JOHN MOWBRAY accordingly reported, it might possibly happen that he owed That they had discharged the following Memhis election to their employment. Hebers from the Standing Committee on Trade, (Mr. Guest) trusted the Attorney General would fall in with this Amendment. LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL said, he was dissatisfied with the whole conduct of the Government this afternoon. The question of carriages was discussed at great length yesterday, and it was understood that the Government would be prepared to make some suggestion on the subject with respect to the increase of the number of polling stations. If they were going to prohibit carriages entirely, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle (Mr. Cowen) wished them to do, the Government must be prepared to bring up a new clause to provide that there should be a polling place within easy reach of every voter, so that a voter might neither have to go a long distance to the poll, or take up much of his time in exercising the franchise. The hon. Member for Newcastle wished to accomplish what was almost impossible. He (Lord Randolph Churchill) did not think they could so far fetter the liberty of the subject as the hon. Gentleman seemed to desire. He understood from the hon. : Shipping, and Manufactures:-Sir ROBERT CUN LIFFE, Mr. ECROYD, Mr. WILLIAM EDWARD And had appointed in substitution :-Mr. (Staffordshire, North), Viscount FOLKESTONE, Mr. GRAFTON, Mr. LEAKE. Report to lie upon the Table. The House suspended its Sitting at Seven of the clock. The House resumed its Sitting at Nine of the clock. Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present, House adjourned at five minutes after Nine o'clock. IRISH REPRODUCTIVE LOAN FUND [BILL 39.] SECOND READING. MR. O'KELLY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the Bill made no change in the principle of the existing law, and was only intended to remove a technical difficulty, which had impeded the application of portion of the fund in the counties of Roscommon and Tipperary. It was the residue of a charitable fund given to certain Irish counties many years ago; but Roscommon and Tipperary, owing to the wording of the Act of 1874, had never been able to derive any benefit from it. The Bill proposed to confer on local bodies in these two counties the power of lending the fund to those persons who might apply for loans for works of public utility; and this would be done under guarantees which would be taken for repayment, and after the Board of Works in Ireland had sanctioned the loans. There would, therefore, be an efficient guarantee that no loans would be improperly contracted. He begged to move the second reading of the Bill. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. O'Kelly.) COLONEL KING-HARMAN, in moving the Adjournment of the Debate, said that even if no other objection existed, the fact that the Bill had only been placed in the hands of Members that morning, and that a copy was not obtainable at a quarter past 12, was a sufficient reason for refusing to read it now a second time. There were, however, other grave objections to it. He was bound to admit that there was a sum of money lying idle belonging to Roscommon and Tipperary which it would be better to utilize for works of public benefit; and if the Bill before the House proposed to entrust that money to bodies which would employ it for the benefit of those counties, he would not be prepared to resist it. But it was proposed to entrust it to the Town Commissioners. If the fund were applied to the counties it would benefit his own tenants in Roscommon most of all. But, so far as he could see, it was only to be utilized for the benefit of the boroughs, which in Roscommon would be Boyle, Roscommon, and part of Athlone. These Town Commissioners were, no doubt, men of intelligence and respectability; but they were elected on purely political grounds, and not because they understood or cared one particle about the boroughs they represented. But, even supposing they were elected because they understood and cared for the boroughs they represented, he maintained that the money should be employed for the benefit of the entire counties. Under those circumstances, the Town Commissioners were not fit bodies to have the spending of the fund. The authority should be either the Grand Juries or the Boards of Guardians. However, he was not going to oppose the second reading on these grounds. He proposed to move the Adjournment of the Debate, on the ground that the Bill had only been placed in the hands of Members late this morning, although it was ordered to be brought in and printed on February 16. MR. WARTON seconded the Amendment. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned." -(Colonel King-Harman.) MR. MITCHELL HENRY said, though there was considerable objection to the course which had been taken in bringing on the Bill for second reading before it had been distributed to Members MR. O'KELLY explained that it was through no fault of his that the Bill had not been distributed. It was in the hands of the printers ten days ago, MR. MITCHELL HENRY said, that being the case, of course there was no blame with the hon. Member. He did not consider, however, that the shortness of the time for consideration was of sufficient importance to induce hon. Members to oppose the Bill. The question was really a very small one, and only affected the interest on two sums of £5,000. The fund, in its present state, was useless. It would be much better that it should be utilized, than that it should continue to lie idle; and what better guarantee could they have for its proper expenditure than the supervision, as proposed, of the Board of Public Works? He hoped his hon. and gallant Friend would withdraw his opposition. the hon. Member for Roscommon had explained to him already the provisions of the measure. It would be, perhaps, under ordinary circumstances, a rudeness on his part to ask the House to accept a Bill which it had not full time to study because the Government had been previously made acquainted with its provisions. However, the hon. and gallant Member for Dublin County (Colonel King-Harman) had not, he thought, given any strong reasons for not adopting the course recommended by the hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. O'Kelly). It was quite true that while the fund concerned the counties, it was put forward there in the interest of the towns; but if there was any objection to the Bill in the counties, he was sure the hon. Members for Roscommon and Tipperary would be there to protest against it. MR. GIBSON: They do not know its MR. MOORE said, he thought the explanation given by his hon. Friend opposite completely exonerated him from any blame as to the delay in the distribution of the Bill. It simply happened that Roscommon and Tipperary, being non-provisions. maritime counties, could not participate in the Reproductive Loan Fund; and the Bill proposed to remove this difficulty. MR. SPEAKER pointed out that the hon. Member could not discuss the Bill on a Motion for Adjournment. MR. TREVELYAN said, he thought that the hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. O'Kelly) had fully explained the cause of delay in the printing of the Bill; but experience showed that at this period of the Session a wider margin than 10 days should be given to the printers. He thought the objections made against the Bill were certainly well worthy of attention. It was difficult to speak on the Question of Adjourn- | ment without referring to them. COLONEL KING-HARMAN said, he was willing to withdraw his Motion, in order that the Chief Secretary might state what the Government proposed to do. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question again proposed. MR. TREVELYAN thanked the hon. and gallant Member for having withdrawn his Motion for the Adjournment. He might say, as regarded the printing of the Bill, that, so far as the Government were concerned, they were fully informed in the matter, inasmuch as since he became the Irish Secretary several of the Irish Representatives had called his attention to this matter, and MR. TREVELYAN said, the hon. Members must have seen the title of the Bill, as for some time it stood second on the Paper for Wednesday, and they must have informed themselves of its provisions. However, if this was a sum of £100,000 or £50,000 belonging to the counties, the Government would hesitate about supporting the Bill; but, in the present instance, the whole sum concerned for the two counties was a sum of only £10,000, and that sum could not be employed for any purpose until a Bill of this kind was passed. There was no doubt the counties of Roscommon and Tipperary had a clear and absolute right to the enjoyment of that sum; but it should be remembered that it was not now being dealt with in a manner that could not be revoked, and that it was only proposed to deal with it in the shape of loans sanctioned by the Board of Works which should be repaid at a reasonable date. The sum was a very small one, and if it could be divided amongst Boards of Guardians for any purpose of public utility, the Government would hesitate long before rejecting the Bill; but he had consulted several hon. Members in connection with the matter, and they had told him that it could not possibly be applied to any uses other than those suggested by the hon. Member for Roscommon. From the peculiar character of the fishing industries in the maritime counties, the granting of small loans to aid them was, | ties had an absolute right to the benefit no doubt, a very useful public purpose of the fund; but, as a matter of fact, to which to apply the fund, as it was under this Bill the counties would have being at present applied; but he could no claim whatever on it. The hon. not find any parallel to such industries Member for Clonmel (Mr. Moore) rose in the interior part of the Island; and, to support this Bill; but he was not under those circumstances, and having aware, perhaps, that Clonmel was the regard to the small sum dealt with, and only town in the two counties excluded to the fact that the principle involved from the benefit of the fund. By the being one which would not form a prece- 8th clause, which was either—should he dent in any other case. - because he say very craftily drawn or unintentionknew no other cases in Ireland similar ally inserted-Clonmel was excluded, to it, though his experience in such because Clonmel boasted of a Mayor matters in England was very narrow- and Corporation, and this Bill related having regard to these considerations, only to towns incorporated under the and to the general desire of the counties Towns Improvement Act. He did not concerned, the Government were prepared intend to oppose the second readto consent to the second reading of the ing of the Bill; but he thought it Bill. The details of the Bill were well would be only fair, before it was furprepared and carefully drawn, and the ther proceeded with, that the Boards of only objection he would be inclined to Guardians of Roscommon and Tipperary make would be regarding Sub-section 4, should have an opportunity, if they deClause 5. Considering that at present sired to get power to borrow from this 23 per cent was paid on loans borrowed fund, to make their case before the Bill in this way in the maritime counties, passed into law. The Guardians might he did not think Parliament would be desire to be given the power of making justified in allowing only 1 per cent to be applications to the Local Government paid in reference to the loans granted Board for loans from this fund; and if under this Bill. However, he would not that desire was substantially supported make objection now in that direction; by the Guardians he thought it ought but when the Bill was proceeded with to be fairly considered. The Chief Seon Committee stage he would move to cretary wished to know to what purposes strike out that clause. That was the these loans could be applied in the counonly objection the Government was in- ties. That was a large inquiry, and he clined to make; and, under those cir- did not intend to answer it; but he cumstances, they were prepared to con- might say that, under this Bill, the sent to the second reading, and, unless authority to which the power of obtainthere was some very strong argument ing loans was given was the urban brought forward against the Bill, he sanitary authority, while the rural sanicould not help hoping that the House tary authority was excluded; and the would agree to it. only definition which the hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. O'Kelly) gave of the works to which the money could be applied was works of general utility. Now, one institution which he (Mr. Gibson) would propose in regard to the counties would be the county infirmary. Again, he thought it would be worthy of consideration to insert in the Bill a direction that loans for works of general utility ought to partake of the character of sanitary works, as such works were very much required in Ireland, both in the country districts and the towns. However, he did not intend to oppose the second reading of the Bill, nor did he intend to place any Amendments to it on the Paper. MR. GIBSON said, the speech of the Chief Secretary was, no doubt, very reasonable and persuasive in its character. The Bill was not a very large one certainly; and being very small, and therefore to be excused, he was not disposed to keep the House at any great length in dealing with it. He did not think, however, with the Chief Secretary that the title of the Bill was likely to attract the attention of those interested in it. The title was very large, grandiose, and vague, and did not convey any idea of the details to anyone; and he did not suppose there was a person in Roscommon or Tipperary who knew the least about "The Irish Reproductive Loan Fund Act (1874) Amendment Bill." The Chief Secretary admitted that the coun Mr. Trevelyan MR. MOORE said, he was quite aware of the point to which the right hon. and |