his right to vote on that occasion; and | 1876 and 1879, because the protests when the votes of the Peers present were called, they all voted "With the exception of the said Robert William Hamilton, who had waived his right to vote as Lord Belhaven." On March 7, 1872, Mr. John MacCallum voted, under protest by four Peers, as the Earl of Breadalbane; but in 1876 and 1879, when the Lord Chancellor said he had voted, and had had one protest presented against his right so to do, this gentleman, as a matter of fact, was travelling in the Transvaal State, South Africa; and so far from the protest being made by a Peer against his voting, the only protest presented was by his mother, the so-called "Countess Regina," in his favour. The Earl of Breadalbane (Gavin Campbell), whose right had been established under Resolution of the House of Lords in 1872, voted by signed list in 1876 and 1879. On the 18th of February, 1874, when the title of the Earl of Eglinton was called, Mr. William Stephen John Fulton gave in a protest, and lodged a signed list, claiming to vote as Earl of Eglinton, but "the said list was refused to be counted" among the votes. On the 16th of April, 1880, he again tendered a protest, which was not allowed to be read. No vote was given at this election in respect of the title of Eglinton. In none of these instances would the persons referred to by the Lord Chancellor be put upon the Roll, for the simple reason that they did not fulfil the first condition-namely, that of voting-excepting in the case in 1872 of the Breadalbane claimant, who would be excluded by the four protests against him in any case. The noble and learned Earl's case thus utterly fell to the ground, and afforded no argument against the noble Duke's (the Duke of Sutherland's) Amendment; but it was worth noting that if the claimants had voted as asserted, they would not have been excluded from the Election Roll by the Lord Chancellor's own clause, which required for the purpose of exclusion a protest against the vote by "a Peer at the same time voting." This condition of exclusion was not fulfilled in the Belhaven case, because the protester, Gavin Hamilton, who turned out eventually to have been the rightful claimant, and so a Peer at the time, did not vote. It was not fulfilled in the Breadalbane case in the instances of were not made by a Peer, and were directed against a totally different person-namely, Gavin Campbell, the real Earl; and it was not fulfilled in the Eglinton case, because the protests similarly were not made by a Peer, and were not made against, but by the claimant, who protested against the real Earl. He would not have detained the House at such length were it not that he was anxious to clear himself from the possible imputation of having asserted as facts statements which, on cause shown, he was not prepared to substantiate. THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, he was not sorry that the noble Earl had made the statement to which their Lordships had just listened, because whenever, through any cause, he had made a mis-statement to the House he was glad when an opportunity_was taken to put it right. The noble Earl was perfectly right in everything he had said, and he (the Lord Chancellor) had only to explain how he had fallen into error. He had desired to have extracted from the Papers which had been laid before the House a list of all the instances in which there were protests recorded by Peers against Peers. He was afraid that he must have conveyed his instructions for that purpose in a manner which was not understood, because they were given to one whom he had not only every reason to confide in, but who was generally most accurate in all that he did; but the extracts which were made included, in point of fact, protests made by persons who were not Peers against those who undoubtedly were, without showing that such was the case. As no other protests were of any use for his purpose than those made by Peers, he had assumed that the contrary was the case. This did not at all affect the principle of what he said, or the other reasons which he gave for objecting to the Amendment moved by the noble Earl (the Earl of Stair). But, undoubtedly, a great deal that he said upon that occasion would not have been said if he had not fallen into that error. No gentleman claiming to be a Peer, whose right to that Peerage was open to controversy, and was controverted, ought, in his judgment, to be placed upon the Roll. He doubted whether, if the Amendment had passed, it would have had the effect contemplated, and whether the Lord Clerk Register would have been entitled to put that name on the Roll. At any rate, he should not be performing his duty if he had been any party to such a change in the Bill as would cause such an unproved claim, which had never been admitted by any competent authority, to be entered upon the Roll. upon THE EARL OF GALLOWAY said, that after the very frank statement made by the Lord Chancellor, that he had been made the victim of misplaced confidence, he would much rather have kept his seat without saying a word; but there was one particular sentence of the noble and learned Earl, used on the occasion which had been alluded to, with regard to which he hoped the same frank declaration would be made. The noble and learned Earl used the following words on that occasion : "That before the adjudication in favour of the Earl of Kellie, the gentleman I refer to "that was, the owner of the ancient Earldom of Mar- THE EARL OF WEMYSS said, there could be no question that the argument originally brought forward by the Lord Chancellor for rejecting the Amendment, to which reference had been made, exercised a great influence on the House. But the effect of the Bill as it stood was reduced to this-that, as regarded keeping Peers off the Roll, it would have effect one individual Peer, and one only. The fact remained that the Peer in question was on the Union Roll now. ["No,"presented himself, and claimed the Earldom no!"] The gentleman representing the of Mar on no less than six occasions"ancient Earldom of Mar had voted on the noble and learned Lord referred to several occasions. The House having, the Holyrood electionsin 1872, declared that the title of Mar "and on each of these occasions one protest only dated from 1565, the noble Duke was recorded against him." (the Duke of Buccleuch) had had the As regarded the protests, up to that courage, in 1877, to come forward and time he believed the noble and learned ask the House to amend the Roll, and Earl was perfectly accurate; but he went place this name in its proper place. On on to say that after the adjudication in the advice of the present and the late favour of the Earl of Kellie, the gentleLord Chancellors, their Lordships re- man--that was, as he (the Earl of Gallocoiled from doing so; and what were way) described him, the owner of the they going to do now? They were ancient Earldom--never presented himgoing to do by Statute what they had self, and had, therefore, given no opporrecoiled from doing by Resolution. This tunity of ascertaining whether one proBill would be marred by what had test, or more than one, or none at all, taken place-marred by the resistance would be recorded against him. He to what was a fair and just Amendment. could inform the noble and learned Earl He regretted that the Lord Chancellor, that he (the Earl of Galloway) and other having resisted the Amendment upon noble Lords in the House had been precertain grounds, which he admitted to sent on a memorable occasion since 1875, be no longer tenable, still held to the the year of the decision of the Committee Bill in its original form. Clause 7, of Privileges upon the claim of the Earl going forth in its original form, would of Kellie, when the gentleman referred perpetrate an injustice on one of the to got up and asked to be allowed to Peers of Scotland. He would ask the record his vote. He had seen the late Lord Chancellor to state clearly what Lord Clerk Register, who was then very was to be the position on the Roll, as aged, and consequently somewhat weak regarded dates, of the Earldom of in body and mind, take the paper, and Mar, after this Bill had passed? He on the spur of the moment throw it on thought the noble and learned Earl the ground and say-"I cannot take would have a difficult task; and he this, Sir, because you are a Peer of your did not expect that their Lordships' own creation." ["Hear, hear!"] The House, with the assistance of this Bill, noble Earl the Chairman of Committees would be able to get out of the mess cheered that statement. Perhaps ho which, rightly or wrongly, this question would not cheer the statement that the had got into. late Lord Clerk Register, before he died, The Lord Chancellor expressed himself as very deeply regret- | Survey during the past year; and to ting the course he had taken upon the inquire whether, in view of the future point, because on investigation he found increase of sale of land under the Settled that he was utterly and entirely wrong Land Act of 1882, and consequent need in what he had done. The Lord Chan- of an official map to fix the acreage of cellor had been entirely misguided in landed estates, the Government will acthis matter. He had trusted to in- celerate the completion of the map of formation which was entirely incorrect. England and Wales? Here was a clause of a Bill directed against one individual, who had gone through the same legal course as was usual to every other Scotch Peer to go through upon his succession to the previous owner of a title, and which was perfectly sufficient in Scotland. He did not think that the Bill should be allowed to pass without a protest on the part of those who knew the facts. LORD SALTOUN said, he thought the noble Earl who had just sat down was quite mistaken in saying that Mr. Goodive Erskine had gone through the same course as every Scotch Peer. When he (Lord Saltoun) succeeded his uncle, he had to prove his right to the title before the Committee of Privileges of their Lordships' House, as every VISCOUNT BURY said, he had for a long time taken a great interest in this matter of the Ordnance Survey. Some 21 years ago, when he was a Member of the House of Commons, a Select Committee, of which he had the honour to be Chairman, was appointed to inquire into the whole question; and, as the result of their Report, the sum of money set apart for the development of the Ordnance Survey was increased to something like £98,000 a-year, Sir Henry James, then the Director of the Survey, having stated that that was the largest sum which he could employ with any advantage. Twenty-one years had elapsed since then; but still, looking to the Report of the Ordnance Survey for the past year, it appeared that a large proScotch Peer then had to do. portion of the Kingdom was still altoTHE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIR-gether, as regarded accurate survey, MAN of COMMITTEES), referring to the remarks of the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss), said, that no doubt there had been a proposal by the noble Duke (the Duke of Buccleuch) to place the Earldom of Mar on the Roll on the date that was found by the Committee of Privileges to be the date of the creation. This was objected to on the ground that no alteration had ever been made upon the placing on the Roll, however inaccurate some of the placings had been. THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, that the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) had appealed to him to make another admission of error. He could not exactly do that. He might have used a rhetorical expression, which he certainly should never have used if he had thought it would have given pain to anyone. He did not, of course, know anything about the claimant to the Earldom of Mar presenting himself beyond what was stated in the Returns. Motion agreed to; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons. THE ORDNANCE SURVEY. QUESTION. LORD BRAYE rose to ask, What progress has been made by the Ordnance entirely untouched. A small portion only in these 21 years of the 25-inch scale had been completed, and only a very little of the 1-inch revision, and this had dawdled on in such a way that the 1-inch revision was itself getting out of date. The other day he purchased the sheet representing the few miles around the centre of London, and, although his examination did not go far, he found Wandsworth Bridge was not in it, nor the mile and a-half of road leading out to Ealing Common. Thus the 1-inch Survey, which was to give an accurate map of the country, was itself out of date, and by the time it was completed it would be perfectly useless. The progress with the 6-inch and the 25-inch scales was equally unsatisfactory. They were told the whole Survey would be completed in 1890; but he hoped it would be conducted on a more systematic plan than at present, because surely something could be done to make the work more quickly available. LORD SUDELEY, in reply, stated that in the year 1880 the attention of the Government was specially directed to this subject on the Report of the Committee upon Land Transfers and Titles, and the Government came to the conclusion that it was of importance | the present maps were very incomplete that the Ordnance Survey should be and unreliable. Roads in Devonshire accelerated. He was afraid the noble which had been in existence for half a Viscount was in error in stating that century, to his knowledge, were not the £98,000 which had been voted an- laid down on the maps. Ireland had nually so many years was as much as long got the largest share of Government could be used-the real fact being that aid, and the Ordnance maps of Ireland it was owing to the amount of money saved the expense of having estate maps not being larger that the Survey had made. But it was too bad that wild been retarded. When it was resolved moors in Scotland should have been to accelerate the service, steps were at mapped in the greatest detail for the once taken to obtain larger Votes, so as benefit of their owners alone, and a to increase the number of people em- few of the most picturesque scenes only ployed, and during the last three years of some tourists; while the greater part the numbers had been greatly increased. of the cultivated lands of England were At the present moment Scotland had left by the Ordnance with nothing betthe Survey completed, and the last man ter than the old obsolete map on the left there in November; and what had 1-inch scale. been done during the three years was this. In 1880 there were 224 men employed on the Survey, and they surveyed 1,070,000 acres ; in 1881 there were 381 men employed, and they surveyed 1,500,000 acres; and in 1882 there were 467 men employed, and they surveyed 2,174,000 acres. If they sought to accelerate the work, or to get it performed quicker than it was now being done, there would be a danger that they would not get that high standard of accuracy which was greatly to be desired in such a matter as this. As to the complaint that the Survey made some years ago was not now out of date, there could be no help for that; but it was the desire of the Government to have the present Survey completed as soon as possible, and when it was completed the necessary alterations might be made. In making arrangements originally for carrying out the Survey, it was found requisite for military purposes that particular districts in different parts of the country should be surveyed first. It was also considered that, in the public interest, preference should be given to the mineral districts. The work would now, however, be carried out in a uniform manner. He could assure the noble Lord (Lord Braye) that there was little doubt the Survey would be completed in 1890, and it was even hoped that it might be finished a short time before that date. THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, he could also bear testimony to the enormous amount of inconvenience which had been caused by the delay that had taken place in the publication of the 6-inch map. Any envy expressed of the superior facilities that foreign nations had of transferring land with little or no expense or difficulty was really hypocritical, as long as no measures were taken to furnish the maps which must be necessary for such purposes. They seemed to have gone on the principle of serving first those parts of the Kingdom which were the most disagreeable to the Government, and which were not in so much need of the maps as England. The most disagreeable part of the Three Kingdoms was Ireland, and, therefore, Ireland had a splendid map. Next to Ireland, Scotland was the most disagreeable part of the country to the Government, and, consequently, Scotland had a map; but poor, meek, humble, submissive England was necessarily left to the last. In reply to Viscount BURY, LORD SUDELEY said, that the dates given for the completion of the Survey included the time of publication of the 25-inch and 12-inch maps, but not the 1-inch; and with regard to the complaint respecting the long delay in publishing the 6-inch maps, he pointed out that, owing to the invention of General Cook, the late Director General of the Ordnance Survey, of photo-zincography, the production of these 6-inch maps would be very much accelerated, and a saving of £100,000 made in their cost, ARMY-RECRUITING FOR THE ARMY company regimental depôt system. The sooner the country appreciated the great interests at stake, and what they had to lose, the better. Their Army was necessarily very small, and, therefore, it ought to be more efficient than any other Army. In regard to filling the ranks of the Army, he would have the English and Scotch Militias embodied for six months, after the harvest of the present year. The best soldiers came from the Militia, and such soldiers cost the country nothing. At present, even the lists of officers were not filled up, and which could have been done without expense. He would implore the Government without delay to have a plan of their LORD ELLENBOROUGH, in rising to call the attention of the House to the general state of the Army, and particularly in reference to recruiting for the Army and Militia, remarked, that the question as to the causes of deterioration in recruiting for the Army was a very wide and important one, and he did not think that the causes which had been previously given for this deterioration embraced the whole of the reasons for it. One thing which the Army certainly wanted was rest; and no arrangement that was contemplated by this or any other Government would have imme-own, and to have a fixed time when it diate effect, because they had got to undo the want of confidence which had been created among the classes from which the recruits were drawn. Many illusions existed on this subject, and there was not one so great on any subject as that with reference to corporal punishment in the Army. His opinion on the question of corporal punishment was that, by its abolition, they deterred the better class of men from joining the Colours, because they removed the protection which it gave to steady and well-conducted men. The objection to it was absurd, and rested entirely on prejudice. The absurdity was seen in the fact that a man discharged from the Army as a bad character, might afterwards be sent to gaol by the Civil power, and there corporal punishment might be inflicted on him. Yet it was not to be enforced in the Army for the sake of discipline. He was not so young a soldier as some persons might suppose, for he entered the Service 44 years ago, and he was convinced that a great portion of the old system might be far more economically and advantageously followed in the Army than the present one which had superseded it. As to looking forward to the Reserve, as it had been looked forward to, he believed that would be found to be most illusory. In political life it was not usual for critics to say what they would do themselves; but military critics could say what they would do. Without alarming the country at all, it could be said that our ranks were thin. The strength of the regiments ought to be what it was under the old system; the actual strength being less than depôts / should be, and were under the old four would be acted upon. A Government that would forget Party in the matter for a sufficiently long period would disarm opposition. Yielding too easily to sentimental feelings, they had abolished marking and corporal punishment, both of which were valuable for the protection of well-behaved men. He did not suppose that corporal punishment in the Army would be re-introduced, nor was it, strictly speaking, necessary, on the old system. He would prefer seeing at the head of the War Department a real soldier, or a real civilian, not a man a little bit of one and a little bit of the other that he did not like to see; but, at all events, he hoped that the Secretary of State for War would form an opinion of his own, and not follow those of other people, or obtain it from the hustings. There had been many unjust and untrue statements made in regard to the infliction of corporal punishment. In 1855, he was with his regiment at Gibraltar, and during a whole year only one man was flogged, though there was every temptation open to the men. During the years that he had been in the Army he never heard that the use of corporal punishment was abused. It was abolished for the sake of change, without anything better being introduced in its stead, or indeed any substitute whatever. He implored the Government to consider the expediency of providing a substitute for it in the field, or honestly own that there was not any to be found, by re-introducing it for the Army in the field. Under the Purchase system there was never such heartburning among officers as now. Under that system the poor |