Gibson) thought the word "immediate," | opinion, it was desirable that there or some equivalent, was desirable, be- should be some revision of the Purchase cause it was the only word in the Re- Clauses of the Land Act, and that that solution which suggested that it was not revision should be of a prompt, and not to be an absolutely abstract Resolution. of a remote character. If they struck out the word "immediate," they made it merely an abstract Resolution, and prevented it having any efficacy at all. This was no new question. On the 2nd May, 1882, Lord Granville, speaking with all the weight of his authority in the House of Lords, used these words

"Your Lordships are aware that the Land

Act does not deal with the question of arrears. Then there are also what are popularly known as the Bright Clauses' of that Act. On both those subjects the Act will require revision; and with regard to that a detailed statement will be made in Parliament at an early

date." (3 Hansard, [268] 1923.)

That was a distinct statement on the 2nd of May last year. But it did not rest there, because, on May 8, Lord

Granville used these words

"Your Lordships are well aware that, some days ago, I announced the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose to Parliament three measures-one with regard to strengthening the administration of justice and the security of private rights in Ireland; one affecting arrears; and another affecting what are called the Bright Clauses.' Her Majesty's Government adhere to that intention."-(Ibid., [269] 316.)

That was a statement made a year ago by one of the leading Members of the Cabinet in reference to this particular question. They then stated that this question required revision; they then stated that they were in a position soon to announce the intentions of the Government, and that a Bill was in preparation. In the face of that statement, and in the face of what had occurred since, was it not unreasonable to expect that his noble Friend the Member for Middlesex would consent to strike out from the Resolution that which gave it life? At that time of the evening (12.10 p.m.), and having regard to the fact that the Prime Minister was about to speak, he did not think it was reasonable for him to make any further observations in reference to this extremely important subject. It was a subject which anyone must have thought of largely who had thought at all on the future condition of Ireland; and he ventured to think that, whatever might be the effect of this Resolution, the House of Commons would affirm that, in its

MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, with regard to the Motion of the noble Lord opposite (Lord George Hamilton), and with regard to the speech of the hon. Gentleman who seconded the Motion (Mr. A. J. Balfour), I must say this-that I do not concur in the grounds upon which they appear to me distinctly to base their proposition. I concur in the proposition itself, with the exception of the word which my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Irebut I do not concur in the grounds upon land (Mr. Trevelyan) has objected to; which they appear to base it. They base their proposition, not upon the fact which I am bound to say the right hon. and learned Gentleman who has just sat down (Mr. Gibson) based his proposition-they do not base their proposition. upon the great advantages of a peasant or farming proprietary; upon the soundness of the principle of such a measure; upon the security it would give for public order, and upon the unity of interest it would create between the class of peasants and the other classes of society, but upon their apprehension that more Land Bills are in preparation. It was not to confer a benefit upon the community at large, but to save the landed proprietors from more Lands Bills that this proposal was made. ["Oh, oh!"] I think I am strictly representing the entire effect of these speeches; and I must own that these statements, coming from such a quarter as they do, convey a deep impression of the unsettled state of the Land Question in Ireland at the present moment. At any rate, the hon. Member for Hartford (Mr. A. J. Balfour) will not deny that he represented it as such. I am not questioning the right of hon. Gentlemen to hold that opinion, if they think fit; but I am merely questioning the policy and the tendency of such a declaration. I doubt it; I do not agree with them. I believe that substantial justice has been done in Ireland. I believe that we have gone to the root of the matter, and have established relations, substantially just, between the landlord and the tenant; and, therefore, I am not ready to admit that the Land Question is unsettled, and I think the

statements of the noble Lord the Mover, | must be carefully looked at and overand the hon. Gentleman the Seconder come. There must be, he said, a careof the Motion were most dangerous and ful and prudent caution, or prudence, or impolitic. I look at this proposal, cautious prudence, or something like that. therefore, from quite a different point of [Mr. GIBSON: Caution.] But there was view-namely, from the point of view another word; another epithet. [Mr. borne by the proposal itself. I do not GIBSON: Statesmanlike prudence.] No, hesitate to say that I agree that the Pur- no. There was something much more chase Clauses require revision, in order telling and pungent than "statesmanto meet the intentions of Parliament; like prudence." Anyhow, the right hon. because, in stating last year that we and learned Gentleman really thinks were not prepared to re-open gene- that all these practical difficulties can rally the particular clauses of the Land be looked at and overcome before a Act, I went on to say that I did not ex- solution can be arrived at, and that tend that declaration to the question of when that process has been gone the Purchase Clauses, any more than I through, and a complex Bill has been did to the question of arrears. I can- framed, it can be introduced in this not agree with the right hon. and House so as to be passed into law durlearned Gentleman who has just sat ing the present Session. That is the down that my noble Friend Lord Gran- proposal he intends to force on the ville ever promised, on the part of the Government, through the medium of Government, to introduce a measure an adverse vote to-night, if he is able into this House immediately. [Mr. to induce the House to go to it. It is GIBSON I read Lord Granville's own all very well for the right hon. and words.] Yes; but they do not bear learned Gentleman, who does not prothe construction the right hon. and pose to legislate himself in this matter, learned Gentleman puts upon them. I to play with edged tools. ["Oh, Oh!"] should take the liberty of adhering to It is playing with edged tools; and it my own words; they were words spoken would be most culpable in the Governin this place, and I presume the House ment to give any promise to introduce a of Commons is prepared to accept on Bill in this House at the present time, such subjects declarations which I may unless they saw their way, in looking make. I can answer for these words; through all the formidable difficulties I cannot tell what words were used by which presented themselves, to frame a Lord Granville, or whether the words measure, and obtain for it the sanction quoted by the right hon. and learned of Parliament this Session. It is not to Gentleman opposite were correctly re- be done; the right hon. and learned ported. We agree, in order to meet the Gentleman knows it cannot be done; intentions of Parliament, there ought to and, according to the announcement he be a revision in these clauses; but the has made, he is going to vote for a right hon. and learned Gentleman who measure which will give a pledge that, has just sat down holds these two doc- in his own mind, he knows it would be trines; he holds that the revision is to impossible to redeem. Let us see how be immediate. Speaking on the 12th this matter stands. He has stated that June, and there being no Bill before the the question is to enlarge the advance House, and no plan before the House, that is to be made, and to throw the except a plan for none of the details of security upon the rates. The question which he will be responsible, and when is a great deal larger than the right the House has been sitting for about hon. and learned Gentleman has reprefour months, the right hon. and learned sented; it and the noble Lord opposite Gentleman says these two things-that (Lord George Hamilton) fairly made the revision must be immediate, and it a great deal larger. The noble that the question involves many prac- Lord, in his speech, fairly threw overtical difficulties to be looked at and board the old notion of requiring overcome before a solution is arrived at. the payment down of an instalment. This is the practical proposition of the The noble Lord based his plan enright hon. and learned Gentleman. There tirely upon the notion of a reduction are, said the right hon. and learned of rent, combined with the transfer of Gentleman, a great many practical dif- the fee simple, a reduction of the grant, ficulties in the way, and these difficulties not necessarily, in all cases, consider

Mr. Gladstone

able; but the annual charge to be made | ceed. He has not, however, communion the tenant, under the plan of the noble Lord, without any proportion of the purchase money paid down in the first instance the annual charge was to be kept within, and be below, and not above, the rent for which the tenant is now liable. The noble Lord made one most important and valuable admission. In a statement, which was couched in very emphatic terms-I will not attempt to repeat his words; but, if I use strong words, I do not think I shall use stronger words than those which fell from the noble Lord when he said he considered it would be most dangerous to place the State in the condition of creditor in the face of the peasantry and smaller occupiers of Ireland, and such a feature he proposed entirely to expel from his plan. Well, that is very important; because, if the noble Lord agrees that it is not safe to place the State in the condition of creditor before the mass of the Irish cultivators, the noble Lord must allow me to say that neither would it be safe to involve the State in pecuniary responsibility in connection with the purchase of Irish holdings with any unreal and illusory personage, placed between the State and the cultivators of the land of Ireland. Now, see what changes are proposed, and how different the scheme now before us in principle and in detail is from the schemes upon which hitherto Parliament has been content to go. I have said I cannot accept the word "immediate" in the Resolution of the noble Lord. While I recognize the duty of Parliament, I cannot consent to adopt words that I know it is impossible to act upon, and that no exertion of the Government, considering the engagements with which they are already charged, could by any possibility enable them to fulfil. Let us see what is the real bearing and effect of the main proposition of the plan before us. I am very glad to see that the hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) re cognized the introduction of the local authority in this case. I hold that my impression is that these clauses will have to be revised; that the revision, if it is to be made, ought to be of a serious character; and if it is to be of a serious character, it would be impossible to effect it except with the introduction of a local authority. On that principle I think the noble Lord proposes to pro

VOL. CCLXXX. [THIRD SERIES.]

cated to us what the local authority is to be; and there, undoubtedly, rises a question of the greatest difficulty and of the greatest importance. The principle upon which all former proposals of this kind have been based has been that, while the creation of a farming proprietary-which was the happy phrase introduced by the noble Lord himself-while the creation of a farming proprietary is very desirable, the principal plan for bringing that proprietary into existence ought to be purchase with comfort, purchase with capital, purchase with candour, purchase with qualities tested to some extent, as a general rule, by the payment down of a proportion of the purchase money. The hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of Cork says we have altered the proportion of the purchase money to be paid down from two-thirds to threefourths; but that is a slender ground for supposing that we are prepared to part with the condition altogether. How far we are prepared to go in this direction may appear at a later stage of this subject; but I do not see how it is possible to part with the application of that principle. Now, Sir, by the adoption of that principle, and by securing the higher character of our purchasers, we attained to the success we have attained under the Irish Church Act, and which we should have attained in a much larger degree under the Land Act had we not, as has been justly stated by the noble Lord and by the hon. and gallant Gentleman below the Gangway (Colonel Colthurst), removed the inducement to proprietorship in a great degree by giving to the tenant such a position, in the capacity of tenant, as conduced to his satisfaction. We then knew that by having these views of competency and character we had likewise some limitation to the extent of the transaction. Parliament would have reserved it in its power to consider, from time to time, whether these transactions ought to be relaxed. And now let us see what is proposed in substance, because, in substance, this is the common view of the proposal of the noble Lord and the hon. Member for the City of Cork. I do not say they adopt all the propositions of the Committee of the House of Lords-the Report of which Committee, by the way, contains

Q

LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: The right hon. Gentleman is mixing up the scheme of the House of Lords with my proposal. I never proposed that the State should guarantee £300,000,000 of money.

the most subversive and dangerous doc- | £300,000,000 of money that would retrines that were ever proposed in our quire to be involved in the guarantee I time by a public body-or all the sug- am now speaking of. That guarantee, gestions set forth by the whole work; according to the noble Lord, is to be but they abolish the payment down of covered by the local authority. any portion of the purchase money, and they say to the tenant-"You are now to become the proprietor of your holding, either with a reduction, or, at all events, with no increase of rent; you are to make no effort, you will be called upon for no payment down-in fact, we shall call upon you to pay something less than your rent for a limited number of years, and then the fee-simple will be yours." I have not made up my mind, quite irrespective of the credit of the State, that such a plan as that is defensible in principle; but it appears to me one of the broadest and most extended propositions that was ever brought before Parliament, and, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin, who is ready to vote for an immediate Bill, says, there are many practical difficulties which really require to be overcome before a solution can be arrived at. What is, then, the consequence? Every cultivator of the soil in Ireland is to be told "We come to you now and we offer to you that, without taking any steps whatever, without entering into any new engagements whatever, with, probably, a remission of some part of your present engagements, you shall be, in a given number of years, the proprietor of the holding which you now occupy." Will not the first consequence of that proposal be that every holder in Ireland will claim to become a proprietor? A man is to make no effort, he is to do nothing; if he has been an indifferent cultivator, or even an indifferent character, as such he may continue; without any effort, or sacrifice, or engagement whatever, he is simply to make his demand, in order to come within the circle of this proposal; he is to become the proprietor of his holding, irrespective of his capital and of his character. I may state, moreover, that the proposal would involve the question of a State guarantee to the extent of several hundreds of millions-£300,000,000 or £400,000,000

MR.PARNELL: About £100,000,000. MR. GLADSTONE: I cannot give the absolute figures; but I venture to say it would not be far short of

Mr. Gladstone

MR. GLADSTONE: I never mentioned anything of the kind. I am endeavouring to work out what I think are the consequences of the noble Lord's proposals. He asked that the payment down of a portion of the purchase money is to be dropped; and I think, under his plan, a man is to become proprietor of his holding without any payment down, but simply by paying for a moderate term of years-I think 40 yearsthe very same or less rent than he pays now. It is for that that I make the noble Lord responsible, not for what he stated, but for what are the necessary consequences of his proposals. The consequences of his proposals are, that every man having offered to him the fee-simple of his holding and some reduction of rent, it is absurd to ask, will that man take it, or will he not? Of course, he will take it. Therefore, you have to deal with the whole land of Ireland. ["No, no!"] I am glad to hear that straightforward recognition of the true facts of the case. At this moment I am called upon to say I will immediately carry this into effect. This is a question which would involve, as I say, a guarantee by the State of £300,000,000 or £400,000,000 of money; or, as the hon. Member for the City of Cork says, of £100,000,000 of money. The noble Lord interposes a local authority. In principle, I think that a valuable and essential feature of his plan; but I do not know whether the noble Lord thinks there are local authorities existing in Ireland who can pledge the people of Ireland and the property of the country to a guarantee of £300,000,000. I do not think there are such bodies in existence, although I do not pretend to speak dogmatically and with authority on this subject. I am not aware of any local authority which can be in the mind of any man, except Grand Juries or the Boards of Guardians. The Grand Juries are totally out of the question upon the

It is

present basis; and with respect to the | to disturb the relations between England Boards of Guardians, which were elected and Ireland. I am not sure what are for entirely different purposes, and with the intentions of the noble Lord; but the functions of not one-fiftieth part of this right hon. and learned Gentleman the scope and importance, I cannot under- Member for the University of Dublin take to bring in immediately a Bill for desires to give us an order to legislate placing in their hands the obligations of immediately on a question which, nevera plan which is to involve this enormous, theless, he ingenuously confesses is surgigantic, and almost incredible guaran- rounded by many practical difficulties tee. I think those are reasons which which require to be carefully looked at. ought to show that we could not possi- I think I have shown why I cannot bly go further than my right hon. Friend adopt this Resolution in the sense in the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu- which it was adopted, certainly by the tenant has gone. I am determined, for hon. Seconder (Mr. A. J. Balfour), as myself, to preserve my own mind entirely a mere defence against the rights of free on the question whether it is possi- property in Ireland, the security of ble to amend the Purchase Clauses of which he thinks we have impaired and the Land Act without dealing with what I weakened, but which we think we have hold to be a question of extreme urgency, saved and rescued. ["Oh! oh!"] It a question of great urgency for Ireland is all very well to jeer; but these are -namely, the question of its local insti- solemn convictions; and the hon. Gentutions. I can conceive that a judicious tleman who is accustomed to indulge in measure of local institutions for Ireland that mode of expression, would do well might immensely simplify the difficulties to allow solemn impressions to be deof this measure; but this one thing livered in a proper manner, and without more I wish to say in protesting against that description of interruption. this enormous transaction, that if we my deep conviction that the Land Act of call upon bodies quite incompetent for 1881 has been a great attempt, and, in the purpose of entering upon vast pecu- the main, a successful attempt, to deal niary engagements on the part of the with the Land Question of Ireland, and people of Ireland, the meaning of that to vindicate the liberty of property in is, that the whole affair will be an im- Ireland. I cannot adopt this Resolution posture. The interference of a local upon the principle that property has authority will only serve to cast dust in been shaken; but I adopt it on totally the eyes of the people in this country, different grounds. I adopt it, without and we should attain no other end than any pledge to take immediate action we should have attained if we had recog- upon it until we can dispose of the nized at once and adopted at once the difficulties with which it is surrounded; principle which the noble Lord declared I adopt it on the ground of the intrinsic to be intolerable-namely, the principle merits of the policy which it contemof becoming at once the direct creditors plates in Ireland-the placing of a conof all the cultivators in Ireland. Un- siderable portion of the land of that doubtedly, regard for the interests of the country in the hands of those by whom English taxpayer is one of the motives, that land is cultivated. and probably a great one, in my mind, against the adoption of any scheme of that character; but I must say there is another motive behind it, working in the same direction, and carrying us to exactly the same conclusion, which I deem to be more weighty still, and that is a motive which must be all-powerful in the mind of every right-minded person in this country namely, a desire to promote harmony and goodwill between the peoples of the two countries. To place the State and the Treasury of this country in the position of creditorship is like putting a bastard premium on every attempt

MR. O'CONNOR POWER said, that whatever opinion the House might form of the proposal of the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton), he was sure those who had sat in the House during the greater part of the debate, as he (Mr. O'Connor Power) had done, would feel thankful to him for the very useful discussion which his Motion had provoked. And he was further sure they would all be glad to join the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, in acknowledging the moderation with which the noble Lord had stated his views. With reference to the speech of the right hon.