Page images
PDF
EPUB

rities. We cannot lay them upon the Table earlier, because, if an imperfect telegraphic summary of them were sent out, it might lead to a mistaken impression as to our intentions on this subject, and prejudice the case before those concerned had time to consider it.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON said, he congratulated his noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) upon this change of policy on the part of Her Majesty's Government, though he must remind their Lordships of the despatch written only a short time since by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Kimberley), to the effect that Her Majesty's Government could not hold out any expectation that steps would be taken to relieve the Cape Colony from their connection with Basutoland. So strongly was that fact impressed on the mind of the Colonial Government that the Colonial Prime Minister commented upon it in terms of no little regret. He did not, however, now blame Her Majesty's Government for this change of policy; and he thought the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) had decided right. Both the noble Earl and the noble Lord who had introduced this question had given certain reasons in favour of this change, which he thought were sound, for the re-admission of the Basutos within the British Empire, and he would add one or two more. In the first place, the Basutos themselves had distinct and decided claims upon us, although, perhaps, his noble Friend hardly did justice to their case. In 1871 Basutoland had been annexed to Cape Colony, then a Crown Colony; and in 1872 a responsible Government was forced upon the Cape. The Basutos were then placed under a system of government for which they did not bargain, and to which they strongly objected; and out of their enforced union with the Cape Colony it seemed to him not improbable that much of the difficulties with the Basuto race had arisen. But the Cape Colony, no less than the Basutos, had claims upon us, because their general policy with regard to Native Tribes had been considerate and humane, although they might have made mistakes. The great reason of all, however, why he thought they ought to take this step was that he believed we could govern the country well, and, comparatively speaking, with little outlay, because, as had

been pointed out, the Native taxation had always been sufficient to bring in a very large return. The noble Earl proposed, as one of the conditions of annexation, that the Cape Colony should give a contribution, which was to be a matter of bargain, and, if he understood rightly, that they should give an equivalent for the Customs duties. Now, he should regret very much if the noble Earl accepted an equivalent for the Customs duties in lieu of the Customs duties themselves, because if they took over Basutoland they would have to take over something more. He was satisfied they would have to take over the country, including Pondoland, down to the sea coast; and if they took over that tract of country they must maintain their power over the Customs duties.

THE EARL OF DERBY said, there was no proposal to take over that district. He was not dealing with that state of things at all.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON said, that it was of no use to blink this question, which was an essential part of the matter-that he warned the noble Earl that he would have to consider the point now raised, because of the contingency that he had indicated, and that this would necessitate a revision of the whole scheme. But there was one other reason why he thought this step was a prudent one. In his opinion, the system of magistrates which could be devised from this country was a better system than that which it was in the power of the Cape authorities to arrange. He should not be thought to find fault with the Cape Government when he said that, as far as he was aware of the facts of the case, the magistrates who had been appointed in Basutoland had, in many respects, failed in maintaining the system for the carrying out of which they were appointed. With regard to the difficulties in the future, he wished to point out, in the first place, that the Border population was not at present under control; and, from that point of view, he was not disposed to quarrel with the condition that the Orange Free State should use their best means to maintain order along the Frontier. It was very desirable to make the Orange Free State parties to this transaction. At the same time, it was desirable to know what the noble Earl meant by "keeping order." If it

[ocr errors]

was meant that the Orange Free State | confidence to a single head, such as the were to keep strict order along their Queen or a Resident Governor, than to own Frontier without crossing the Border an Assemby of responsible Representaand interfering with the people of Basuto- tives or a Parliament. The very system land, he had nothing to find fault with; of Parliamentary government involved but if a door was to be opened to their a frequent change of officers and funcinterfering with the Basutos, then, he tionaries; and it was impossible, in such feared, complications would sooner or circumstances, there could be that fixity later arise. His noble Friend said that and continuity of government which the Basutos must accept our rule cheer- was absolutely essential in dealing with fully. So far as the bulk of the people Native races. He did not, in this inwere concerned, he believed that it was stance, desire to see what was called a probable that our rule would be wel- Crown Colony system of government come. It must, however, be borne established. What was needed here in mind that in recent years the power should be of the simplest possible kind. of the Chiefs in Basutoland had un- There was no need for Councils, or any dergone considerable alteration. Their of the machinery which existed in some power had, on the whole, been waning; Crown Colonies. The country could be and their position now was this-that governed by Residents and magistrates, in some respects they had too much making every Native feel that justice power, in other respects they had too was administered as between man and little. He was tolerably confident that man; and, on the other hand, using, as at present the great part of the people far as possible, the instrumentality and would accept our rule cheerfully; but a the agency of the Chiefs. few years hence questions might arise. as to how far the Chiefs themselves were prepared to accept it, and it would be very desirable indeed if some steps could be taken some practical and unquestionable test proposed and accepted-to show that the Chiefs, as well as the people, were prepared to accept our government. That was a view in which anyone who knew South Africa would agree. There were three important considerations which seemed to him to arise out of this question. In the first place, there had been a remarkable change of policy in the last five or six years in South Africa. Since he held the Seals of the Colonial Office an enormous change of feeling and policy on many important questions had taken place, alike in the Cape, in the Colony of Natal, and the Orange Free State, to which must be added the important fact that the Basutos had had the best of the Cape Government in war, just as the Boers of the Transvaal had beaten us. These changes and circumstances had produced very great effects in South Africa, effects which went far beyond the limits of the present transaction. In the next place, recent events had shown that a responsible Government, with a Parliamentary Government, though very desirable in many respects, was by no means the best instrument for dealing with the Natives or Native affairs. These Native Tribes looked with much more The Earl of Carnarvon

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY said, he did not intend to follow the noble Earl in his observations on the course adopted by the Government on this question. The noble Earl had, however, alluded to a despatch which he (the Earl of Kimberley) had written last year, when he had the honour to hold the Seals of the Colonial Office. In that despatch he had said it was not the intention of the Government to take any steps to relieve the Cape Colony from responsibility in connection with Basutoland. If Her Majesty's Government interfered in any way prematurely, it was only too probable that there would be a recurrence of the difficulties which had already been experienced. The object of Her Majesty's Government had been to test whether the Cape Colony could. settle this matter of Basutoland to their own satisfaction. He had always thought that the time might come when that Colony would come to a determination to repeal the Annexation Act, and that it would then be for the Government to consider whether they should resume Basutoland. For his own part, he heartily and entirely concurred in the determination which had been arrived at by Her Majesty's Government in the present juncture. At the same time, it was quite as well that Her Majesty's Government, in undertaking this course, which he believed to be the only one adapted to the circumstances, should

not disguise from themselves the gravity | reference to expense, we should be arof the step as regarded the whole of our riving by another road at that which the position in South Africa. The noble noble Earl opposite (the Earl of CarnarEarl who had just spoken might remem- von) wished to bring about many years ber that some years ago he called on the ago-namely, that the Imperial GoCape Colony to contribute towards the vernment should undertake to manage expenses of the troops in that Colony. the Frontiers, but that the Cape GovernThey were asked to contribute, he ment should contribute a fair share of thought, some £40 a-man, which was the expense. He would not say that in the contribution asked from certain the peculiar condition of South Africa at other Colonies. The Cape Colony at the present time this might not be the that time, having Parliamentary insti- best and wisest system; but that was a tutions, steadily refused to make any very different thing from saying that the such contribution; and his noble Friend Imperial Government should bear, not informed the Cape Government that if only the responsibility, but the whole of they were not prepared to contribute the expense of the ordinary control of towards the cost of their defence they those Frontiers. In some great crisis must be left to take in their own hands we might be called upon to assist the the defence of their Frontier, and that, Colony; that was perfectly reasonable, though it might be a question of time and might hold good with regard to all and opportunity, Her Majesty's Govern- our Colonies; but in ordinary times it ment would reduce the Forces employed was fair to expect that we should receive in South Africa to a garrison of Cape from them a reasonable contribution toTown. This policy, from the time his wards the expense and responsibility noble Friend received that refusal, had which were undertaken. Because it been more or less steadily pursued by must be remembered that, although the successive Colonial Ministers. There was, Cape Government now in their distress to his mind, one most unfortunate depar- came to the Imperial Government and ture from that policy, which was when were desirous that they should take Sir Bartle Frere dismissed his Ministry over the charge of Basutoland, that because they wished to carry on a frontier Government had not taken this course war without the assistance of the Im- until they had exhausted all the means perial troops. From that moment every- at their command in gallantly endeathing had gone wrong in the Cape vouring to discharge the responsibiliColony with regard to those matters. ties which they had undertaken; and When the Colony found they were to when a Colony came to ask assistance be relieved from the responsibility of under such circumstances it had a right defending their Frontiers, and that the to expect that the Empire to which it old system was to be pursued of the belonged would give it. That was his Frontiers being defended at the expense view of the present situation as regarded of the Empire, fresh difficulties arose in Basutoland, and he hoped that the conconsequence of the steps taken in pur- dition that his noble Friend had laid suance of Sir Bartle Frere's policy. With down would be accepted. The present respect to the Disarmament Act itself, circumstances were favourable to it, as that was a perfectly wise step to take, we had the concurrent opinion of the as it merely enabled the Government Cape Colony and the Orange Free State. by Proclamation, where it was thought The latter point he considered to be of necessary, to disarm the Natives; but the highest importance, and he thought the attempt to disarm the Basutos it was probable that the Basutos themwas most impolitic. The position in selves would be willing to recognize our which this country found itself in regard authority; but, as the noble Earl oppoto those matters was, that we were, site had said, we must have the consent more or less, going back to the old state of the Chiefs; for if we were to go back of things, which we had for many years to Basutoland without the distinct conabandoned, but going back with one sent of the Chiefs, and without an unmisserious difference, and that was the takable indication that they would subreason why he made those observa- mit to the Imperial authority, we should tions. Practically, if the Cape Govern- only embark in troubles, the end of ment agreed to the condition which Her which we should not be able easily to Majesty's Government proposed with foresee.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS.

MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.

Moved for

"An Address to Her Most Gracious Majesty for, Copy of all orders given with respect to the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts since the vote of the House of Commons in reference to compulsory examination."-(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: My Lords, a statement was made on Tuesday by the noble Viscount (Viscount Lifford), on the authority of a correspondent of his, that on the arrival of a transport at Portsmouth with troops, 30 women had left the Lock Hospital at Portsmouth uncured. I promised to make inquiry. It seems that some similar story appeared in one of the London papers; and the visiting surgeon for Portsmouth, Dr. Parson, wrote to the Admiralty at once on seeing it, to say that

"There is no foundation whatever for the statement therein contained of women having left the hospital, nor have any expressed any desire or shown any intention to do so until cured."

[blocks in formation]

Considered as amended-Local Government Provisional Order (Highways) [193]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7)' [196]; Tramways Provisional Order (No. 4) * [201].

Third Reading-Elementary Education Provisional Orders Confirmation (Cummersdale, &c.) [163]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 3)* [192]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5)* [194]: Lord Alcester's Grant * [207]; Lord Wolseley's Grant [208]; Forest of Dean (Highways) [222]; Registry of Deeds (Ireland [202], and passed.

QUESTIONS.

1800

FISHERIES (IRELAND).

MR. MITCHELL HENRY asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he will endeavour to arrange with the Admiralty to place at the disposal of the Fishery Commissioners during the summer a suitable vessel, with the necessary apparatus, in order to determine whether a valuable bank of fish exists in the west of Ireland near to Clifden and the adjacent islands?

MR. TREVELYAN: Without further information on the subject than the Government have been able to obtain since

this Question was put on the Paper, they are unable to give any undertaking in the sense desired by the hon. Member.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Government will endeavour to obtain further information, or am I to accept his answer as a declaration that the Government prefers that the starving inhabitants of the West shall be eaten up by the fish rather than that the fish shall supply food for them?

MR. TREVELYAN: The hon. Membergeneralizes a good deal too much. He asks whether, at a particular point of the Irish coast, more than at any other point, the Government, without any other authority, will send a ship? That is a Question which demands a good deal of consideration, which I think is not unreasonable. If a ship were sent to every point that the hon. Member suggests

without examination on that coast it is obvious that great and unnecessary expense would be incurred.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY: I fear I have not made my Question intelligible to the right hon. Gentleman. I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in a par

ticular district in which there is chronic destitution and famine, and as to which it has been reported by the Fishery Commissioners that there are extensive banks of fish, Her Majesty's Government will take means to inquire into the existence of such banks of fish?

[No reply was given.]

CROWN LANDS BILL-THE NEW

FOREST-FUEL RIGHTS.

LORD HENRY SCOTT asked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether it is not a fact that the Crown now possesses the power to purchase by agreement fuel rights in the New Forest; whether it is essential to the public interest to retain the Clauses in the Crown Lands Bill which make it compulsory on the owners of fuel to sell them to the Crown; and, having regard to the fact that the evidence of such owners of fuel rights as have petitioned Parliament against these Clauses was not heard by the Select Committee to which the Crown Lands Bill was referred, he will consent to withdraw Clauses 7 and 8 in that Bill?

MR. W. H. JAMES asked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the present owners of fuel rights have never been invited by the Crown to sell them by agreement, under its general powers of purchase conferred upon it by the Act 10 Geo. 4, cap. 50; whether the fuel rights, like the other common rights in the New Forest, extend over the entire forest, with the temporary exception of such lands as may be from time to time enclosed within temporary fences for the growth and preservation of young timber, under the Acts of 1698, 1808, and 1851, and not yet thrown open, and whether the woodland available for the supply of the fuel rights at the present time (adopting the estimate made by the Hon. J. K. Howard, late Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests, in his special report presented to Parliament in 1871, and subsequently, by order of the House, reprinted in 1875), amounts from 13,500 to 14,000 acres; and, whether the owners and the exercisers of the fuel rights, who are entitled to about 344 out of a total of 406 loads of wood from the New Forest, and who have petitioned against sections 7 and 8 of the Crown Lands Bill, have pledged their "local experience" that the fuel

rights have always been satisfied, and may continue to be satisfied, without the sacrifice of any ornamental timber?

MR. COURTNEY: I will answer my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead at the same time as the noble Lord. The Crown can now purchase the fuel rights by agreement, and although they have not sent a Circular distinctly inviting sales, the fact is generally known by those interested. With respect to the case of the owners, although due notice was given, and ample opportunity for petitioning, the hostile owners did not see fit to appear before the Committee at the proper time; but, notwithstanding this, the Committee gave them an opportunity of making a statement, which, however, did not modify its decision. It is very desirable to get rid of these rights, because, as the Commissioner of Woods says, and the Select Committee agreed, before long there might not be timber to satisfy them. They are confined to the uninclosed parts of the Forest; and these, after deducting the 16,000 acres which the Crown is entitled to reserve, amount to only 6,169 acres of timber, of which 4,500 may be described as "ornamental and ancient woods." Thus there is now little available to supply the annual demand, which is equivalent to about 320 large trees; and it may soon be necessary to reduce the assignment of fuel to half rations. Some local people have asserted that no injury would be caused by the continuance of these rights; but they are probably not aware that they do not extend to the Crown reserves. Under these circumstances, I am not at present prepared to withdraw the compulsory clauses.

POOR LAW (IRELAND)-BELFAST

WORKHOUSE.

MR. BIGGAR asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If his attention has been called to the proposal of the Belfast Guardians of the 29th ultimo, to erect a new detached dwelling house for the present workhouse master, at a cost of £600 or £700; is said proposed house outside workhouse grounds; if it be true that the master was only appointed about two years ago, and since this time upwards of £200 have been expended in general improvements to, and furniture for, his apartments, in addition to the furniture pre

« EelmineJätka »