The DUKE of ARGYLL said, his noble Friend opposite (Earl Grey) had said, that he (the Duke of Argyll) was imperfectly informed as to the law of marriage: but he could assure him that he was himself imperfectly informed respecting it if he thought that the law of 1834 afforded relief for the grievances of which the petitioners complained. As to leaving the question to the Colonial Assemblies, no doubt they might pass an Act to remedy the grievance; but cases might arise where, in the event of an appeal to the Crown, it would be difficult to say what the decision would be. The remedy proposed by those petitioners was a reasonable remedy, and a declaratory Act should be passed to carry it into effect. EARL GREY could not concur with his He power of doing. Marriage was not a sub- himself or from their Lordships, that it was ject that ought to be left to the colonists; utterly impossible for the mother country because it was most important that there to abolish the punishment of transportashould be a uniform law of marriage as far tion; but he had always felt, and frankly as possible throughout the British empire. stated at the same time, that unless they There was an appeal from all the Colonies applied some remedy to the undoubted to the Queen in person on the subject; and grievances inflicted on Van Diemen's Land how were the Members of the Judicial by the present system, they would find it Committee to find out what was to be the equally difficult to continue or to defend it. law of all the various Colonies under the The papers which his noble Friend the Crown of England? Secretary of State had laid upon the table of the House, and which within a few days had been put into their Lordships' hands, deserved the most careful attention. He believed that all his anticipations were proved to be realised, and that unless some effort was made on the part of this country, without delay, to alter the system for the disposal of convicts, they would have a struggle to encounter more resembling a struggle of force than one of reason. had also ventured, on a former occasion, to predict that it was probable there would arise a confederation amongst all the Australian Colonies to express their united opinion against transportation; and whilst he denied that they had the right to resist altogether the power of this country in exercising the ancient prerogative of the Crown, or the law of the land, in applying transportation as a secondary punishment, he was ready to admit that it was the bounden duty of this country so to exercise its power as to diminish the amount, or even the apprehension, of evil to the colonists, and, if possible, to convert, as he believed they might convert, the system of transportation into a measure that would ultimately be for the benefit of all. He regretted that he could not see from the papers that had been laid upon the table, that the Government were taking those steps; and when he thought what the effect must be of such neglect on Van Diemen's Land, New South Wales, and the other Australian colonies, and when he further recollected that the Secretary of State was about to withdraw the military garrisons, he felt there was but too much reason to apprehend that fatal dissensions would arise between the colonists and the mother country. The petition which he held in his hand was the petition of the New South Wales Association for preventing the Revival of Transportation. It was the Central Association, representing the opinions of all the provinces. It included the names of most respectable men. Mr. Cooper, whose ability was known to their Lordships by noble and learned Friend that this was a subject that could be satisfactorily dealt with by Parliament, and not by the Colonial Assemblies. There ought to be some defined mode of giving evidence of the marriage; and if they adopted the suggestion of the noble Duke, and passed a declaratory Act superseding all colonial enactments, it would follow that any contract without any regulation as to the way it should be made, would be a valid marriage. It was better to leave the matter to the colonists, who had shown every disposition to follow their example; and the Act of 1835 was a model that was likely also to be followed by the other Colonies. Petition to lie on the table. TRANSPORTATION TO VAN DIEMEN'S LAND. LORD MONTEAGLE begged to present a petition to their Lordships from New South Wales on the subject of transportation-a question now of the very first importance. (Minutes of Proceedings, 61.) The petition, he feared, realised many of the apprehensions which he had ventured to express to their Lordships on former occasions. He had never concealed from Lord Campbell valuable reports addressed to the Legisla- | the complaints of the colonists. For many tive Council, was the chairman: he also years the petitions of those colonists were saw the name of a gentleman who had couched in language of respect and modebeen private secretary to a gallant friend ration; but the petitions now were framed of his, General Bourke, who had long been in very different language. In the first Governor of the colony. There were other place, there was a melancholy uniformity names of considerable importance, inclu- in all their complaints. They universally ding members of the Legislative Council, attributed to this country, and to the justices of the peace, and a great majority highest authority in the State, to the Leof respectable colonists. In the first place, gislature, and to the department that they adopted, as an unquestionable fact, governs the colonies, a breach of faith tothat they had been promised by the Secre- wards them. The language in which they tary for the Colonies, that no convicts would addressed the Crown and the Government be again sent out within the settled dis- on this subject was sometimes offensive tricts against the consent of the inhabi- and insulting, and they addressed his noble tants. They naturally claimed the full Friend (Earl Grey) in language which he performance of that promise; but it ap- was sure he did not personally deserve. peared to him (Lord Monteagle) that they But, at the same time, they attributed to went much further, and claimed much him a breach of faith-a charge which he more than was reasonable. In presenting thought was well merited, and which was the petition, he should be sorry to say traced to the noble Earl's own despatches. that he agreed in all the opinions which They contrasted the principles on which it expressed. The petitioners asserted he promised to conduct his administration that it would be unjust, and a violation of with the principles on which he has latterly the promise made to them by the Govern- been compelled to act. Language of the ment, to divide any part of the colony of following description had been used at a New South Wales into a new province public meeting, at which magistrates, where convicts should be received; and sheriffs, and municipal authorities were they added, what was wholly indefensible, present. One speaker asserted, that if that, if a new province were created, it convicts were sent to his district, transhould not be made a place for trans-sportation should have ceased long since, portation even with the consent, and at the desire, of the colonists. The petitioners contended, that not only was the Government to be prevented from sending convicts to the older settlements in their province, but that they should also be restrained from sending convicts to any new States which might for their own benefit be created in any part of the great continent of Australia, even though the inhabitants and legislature of those new States should themselves seek for the assistance of convicts. He (Lord Monteagle) thought that demand of the petitioners to be wholly indefensible. Looking to the case of the northern colony, which it was at one time proposed to found-an intention which was unfortunately abandoned without the substitution of any substitute, but, on the contrary, was accompanied by a limitation of other remedial measures-considering the wisdom and expediency of the plan set aside by the present Secretary of State-he thought the pretension now put forward by the petitioners was as extravagant a proposition as could be made. He wished to call their Lordships' attention to the altered tone of VOL. CXVII. [THIRD SERIES.] 66 The for they would not have been allowed to than he did -no one could feel more value to a value greater than any which strongly that these threats must stand in had been realised in any part of the Austhe way of the accomplishment of what tralian territory, there would be found not the colonists had at heart; but it showed only employment for the convicts, but an their present disposition-it proved that it abundant remuneration for the cost. The would not do for the noble Earl to let this convict problem would thus be solved. It question sleep. Unless we introduced a was estimated that in one district of India reformed system, which should have the the employment of the people in improving effect of reconciling the colonists to the con- the water supply, at an expenditure of tinuance of transportation, this country 241,000l., had raised the revenue from would have to encounter resistance which 96,000 rupees to 210,000, while the they must all deplore violence might entire gain arising from that source was bring to an end our only effectual secondary 400,000 rupees; and the public officer punishment. He believed that a better who described the works has reported that system might be introduced-one that the moral improvement of the natives was would still this agitation, and that would as great as their improvement in agriculreconcile the colonists to transportation, ture. He took the liberty of throwing by the adoption of a principle which, this out as one of the many ways in which to a certain extent, had been acted on the Australian colonists might be reconelsewhere for many years-a mode of pro-ciled to the convict system. England ceeding advantageous not only to the con- might be relieved, the convicts reformed, victs, but also to the colonists. This country should not burden the colony with the cost of transportation. It must not grumble at any expense; they would have to maintain the criminal population in England, and therefore they must not grumble at the additional cost being incurred when our convicts were transported to the colonies. They should make their labour in the colonies profitable to the colonists, and that, he believed, was a course as easy as it would be found to be advantageous. There were many examples in support of this proposition, and papers had been called for and laid upon the table of the House, respecting some of our proceedings in India, which had a most significant application to the question now before their Lordships. It was usually said that we could not employ our convicts except upon public works, and that there were no extent of public works upon which they could be employed. But if no further roads, harbours, and bridges were required in Australia, which was far from being the case, an inexhaustible demand for profitable labour might still be found. It was well known that in Australia there was a great deficiency in the supply of water, and that from this want the powers of agricultural production were greatly limited. Now, it must be remembered that the public land in Australia was the wealth of the colony; and supposing they were able, by means of the labour of convicts, employed in making tanks and providing for irrigation, to convert that land from its present insignificant Lord Monteagle and settlement and civilisation promoted. If the Government did not succeed in reconciling them to it, they might struggle to force it upon them; in that case there would be a fearful struggle, and a very doubtful result. Perhaps in some colony the convict population might predominate, and then such a colony would be degraded, as the noble Earl (Earl Grey) had said the other night, into a condition like that of Norfolk Island; while other colonies might succeed in their resistance, and refuse altogether to receive our transports. And what would become of this country if, by the impolitic conduct of Government, the carelessness of Parliament, and the public indifference to this question, we were ultimately left without the means of adequate secondary punishment at home, or of providing for our criminals by transporting them abroad? The petitions presented to the Legislative Assembly of New South Wales, and upon which this petition to their Lordships was founded, were carried by an immense majority, and were unfavourable to the continuance of transportation, for while there were only eight petitions, with 525 signatures, in favour of transportation in any modified shape whatever, there were no fewer than 36,000 signatures to the petitions against it. EARL GREY said, that his noble Friend, in the speech which he had just addressed to the House, had not confined himself to the prayer of the petition, in which he had stated, indeed, that he did not concur. The petition was in reality directed against an Act passed in the last Session of Par liament, by which it was provided that labour was no longer necessary to them, upon the petition of the inhabitants of the it should be withheld from other colonists. northern part of the colony of New South He had repeatedly stated in that House Wales, that northern part might be formed that while he thought we must still coninto a distinct colony. Now, a few days tinue to send convicts to these colonies, ago a petition was received from the Go- and that it was for the real interest of the vernor, signed, he believed, by nearly all colonies that we should do so, yet that at the resident landowners in that district, the same time he considered that it was praying that the Crown would exercise that the duty of the Government and of Parpower, divide the colony, and give them liament to take all the measures in their the advantage of convict labour; and he power for rendering the transportation of (Earl Grey) observed, upon referring to convicts as advantageous as possible to the the newspaper report of the discussion colonists. He thought what the noble which took place upon that subject, that Lord had stated with respect to the emone of the grounds on which the petition-ployment of convict labour was perfectly ers rested their case was, that they con- just; but he was surprised that the noble tributed very largely to the revenue of the Lord, who had paid so much attention to whole colony of New South Wales, but this subject, did not perceive that the printhat the Legislature at Sydney entirely ciple had been laid down over and over neglected their interests; refused them the again, in the correspondence between Her advantages of the police that were abso- Majesty's Government and Sir William lutely required for their protection and Denison, and that even the construction of safety, and in order to prevent collisions tanks was suggested to him five years ago. with the aborigines; and, in fact, withheld Indeed, roads and various other works had from them benefits to which they con- been constructed by the convicts in Van ceived they were entitled; it was, indeed, Diemen's Land, to the great advantage of a repetition of the complaint to which Par- the colony; and the same had been the case liament had attended with respect to Vic- in Western Australia. He did not wish toria. Now the object of the petition again to enter into the question that had which had given rise to this conversation been so fully discussed on former occasions. was, that the power granted to Govern- He had admitted that the colonists of Van ment by Parliament for the division of the Diemen's Land had much to complain of; colony should not be exercised; or that, but the cause of complaint had arisen beif exercised, the sheep farmers of Northern fore he (Earl Grey) had any responsibility Australia should not be allowed to avail in connexion with the Colonies, and since themselves of convict labour, even if they he had had, everything had been done to found it for their advantage to do so. That render the sending of convicts to the cowas all that the prayer of the petition con- lony as compatible as possible with its intemplated. In sending over the petition terests. His noble Friend was apprehenfrom Northern Australia, the Governor sive, from some suggestions thrown out said that he had only just received it, and at a public meeting, that the sending them that he had no time to accompany it with there might be defeated by a combinathe information which he thought neces- tion against employing them; but he sary to its proper consideration; and he was happy to inform him that he had retherefore requested that Her Majesty's ceived a communication from the owner of Government would take no steps upon it one of the last ships which had taken out until that further information was sent convicts to the colony of Van Diemen's home. Of course, that communication Land, stating that immediately on the arfrom Sir Charles Fitzroy was conclusive, rival of the ship at Hobart Town, and beand nothing could or would be done on the fore the convicts could be landed, 100 of petition until the Government received ad- the ticket-of-leave men were engaged by ditional information. But, undoubtedly, persons in the colony who required labour. he was not prepared to say that, in de- Petition to lie on the table. ference to the complaint of the petitioners now before the House, the power given by Act of Parliament was not to be exercised. for the relief of the inhabitants of Northern Australia if their complaint turned out to be well founded; or that because the inhabitants of Sydney found that convict SALMON FISHERIES (SCOTLAND) BILL. The DUKE of RICHMOND presented a petition from the Proprietors and Tenants of the Lower Salmon Fisheries in the rivers Dee and Don, praying that the House would not give their assent to this mea sure until the petitioners had had an opportunity of considering it. His Grace deprecated any legislation on a subject of so much importance, both on account of the amount of capital invested in these fisheries, and the labour which they employed, until those interested in it had had an opportunity of stating their views. He did not think that it would be possible during the present Session to pass an Act that would satisfy the large interests involved in this trade, and he thought that the better way would be to withdraw the Bill for the present, and refer the subject to a Select Committee, and the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) might then, at the beginning of the next Session, introduce a Bill which was likely to be a permanent settlement of this question. on the subject, the property of those in- After a few words from Lord Abinger, INTERMENTS IN GREAT TOWNS. LORD MONTEAGLE wished to ask the noble Earl the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster a question, with respect to a law which was carried in the last Session of Parliament, relating to interments in great towns. Every possible attention had been given to it, and the greatest possible interest had been excited out of doors on the subject. It was matter of observation that, notwithstanding that Bill had passed, graves were daily or frequently opened, and the old system of interring continued just The DUKE of ARGYLL said, that he exactly as if no legislation at all had taken would give due notice of the course which place. His noble Friend, though the queshe intended to take with respect to the tion did not relate to the department with present Bill. He introduced this very Bill which he was now connected, had taken a last Session (with the exception of a single most praiseworthy interest in the Bill, and new clause), with an intimation that he he (Lord Monteagle) would be happy to should not press it then, but that he learn from his noble Friend, as the people should do so in the present Session of of London desired to learn from the GoParliament: therefore, the proprietors of vernment, what was the reason why, after the salmon fisheries had had ample oppor- the legislation of last Session, a system tunity to consider its provisions. He had which had been set aside as being incongone too far to justify his withdrawing the sistent with the health of the people, was Bill during the present Session. He should continued precisely as if there had been no certainly take the opinion of the House legislation? He had not had an opportuupon it; but, in consequence of the ab-nity of giving notice; and if it were nesence of many noble Lords, who took an interest in the question, he should not proceed further with it until after the Whitsuntide holidays. He should decline to refer the question to a Select Committee, because there had been Select Committees upon the subject over and over again in that and the other House of Parliament, so that they were as well prepared to legis-under the direction of the Treasury, were late upon the subject now as they would be after the labours of another Select Committee. The opposition to the Bill proceeded chiefly from the proprietors of one or two rivers in Scotland, whilst the vast majority of salmon proprietors supported it. EARL GREY said, that ever since he had been in Parliament there had been a Salmon Fishery Bill before one or the other House of Parliament. He suggested to the noble Duke that, instead of referring the subject, they should refer the Bill to a Select Committee, who might agree upon a practical measure, which might be carried through the Legislature next Session. Unless there was some legislation The Duke of Richmond cessary to make inquiries, his noble Friend would perhaps be kind enough to give their Lordships the information sought after the recess. The EARL of CARLISLE said, that he was not previously aware of his noble Friend's intention to ask this question; but he knew that the Board of Health, now in communication with the several Cemetery Companies with respect to the terms on which they could get possession of the cemeteries within the metropolitan districts. He was not acquainted with the precise position of the negotiation at present, but he believed that it was found to be a financial operation of considerable magnitude, and requiring considerable attention. He quite shared in the impatience which his noble Friend had expressed-that a measure which, he believed, was calculated to produce such beneficial results should be brought into operation with as little delay as possible. House adjourned to Monday the 16th instant. |