propofed to confer a power on volunteer commanders far exceeding that poffeffed by any other defcription of officers. He argued forcibly that a volunteer commander thould be obliged to ftate his reafons for difcharging a man, or otherwife the mode of appeal propofed against the abufe of this power would be quite impracticable. He ridiculed the idea of declining, from the pretext of humanity, to make it imperative on those commanders to flate their reafons for difmiffing any volunteer..

General Loftus faid, that in the courfe of his fervice he had never known an inftance of a colonel of any regiment difcharging a man from the fervice on his own authority folely, as the noble Lord on the Treafury Bench afferted.

Mr. Pitt thought there would be a hardship upon the volunteer, for he might be on the fudden, without knowing any-reafon for it, rendered liable to be ballotted for the mili tia or army of referve. Now he had no difficulty in saying, that the ground on which the commanding officer might difmifs a man could be eafily ftated in general; the grounds which were ftated in the bill might be eafily affigned by the commanding officer, fuch as want of attendance, want of attention, and that which was the effect of the other two 'faults, want. of difcipline; these were caufes which the commanding officer might easily allege for his discharging a man. But there was another reafon of as much force in caufing the difcharge of a man as any other, and which could not with any propriety be alleged for difmiffing him, and that was his character, he meant the badness of his character, which might be of fuch a kind as that others might not like to act with him; and yet this reafon could not in the nature of things be very conveniently affigned as the cause of his difmiffal, although it was in itfelf a very fufficient reafon for it. But perhaps it might be proper to make fome application in fuch a cafe to the Lord Lieutenant of the county, or elfe there ought to be fome court of inquiry into the matter, before the difmiffal took pluce, not by way of appeal against the determination of the commanding officer, for of that he had no idea. Now he faw no difficulty in allowing the commanding officer himself to nominate, or elfe to apply to the Lord Lieutenant to nominate, two or three perfons as a council or court martial, or court of inquiry, to judge of the cafe, and determine upon it, and that if their determination fhould be approved of by the commanding officer, then fuch commanding officer fhould have power to

dilmifs

difmifs fuch perfon, for any of the caufes enumerated in the bill, or for any other fufficient caufe: but he confeffed he thought that before any man was difmiffed, an inquiry should be inftituted into his cafe, and that it fhould not be left wholly in the difcretion of the commanding officer, who would really not think the Legislature ufed him well, by imposing upon him the burthen of deciding in all cafes by his own difcretion, and leaving to him all the refponfibility which muft belong to the exercife of fuch a power as this claufe was calculated to bestow upon the commanding officer.

The Secretary at War said, it did appear to him, that the court of inquiry fuggefted by the right hon. Gentleman was the more objectionable one of the two, and that the inquiry on a man's character was more objectionable than an inquiry on any fact that was alleged against him.

Sir IV. Geary faw fome difficulty in procuring officers by whom an inquiry thould be inftituted; he was therefore inclined to think, that the better way would be, to give the propofed power to the commanding officer.

Mr. Rofe obferved, that there was great force in what had been faid by his right hon. Friend near him (Mr. Pitt) upon the hardship to which a man in a volunteer corps might be expofed when discharged on the fudden by his commanding officer, for he was immediately fubject to the militia and the army of referve. He had no idea that any appeal should be allowed against the decifion of the commanding officer, that would be repugnant to all ideas of military difcipline; but what he meant was this, that any volunteer difcharged by a commanding officer fhould be at liberty to apply to the Lord Lieutenant, who fhould, if he thought the perfon not culpable, have power to exempt him from ballot in the militia and the army of reserve, but not by any means to restore him again to the volunteer corps out of which he had been discharged.

The queftion was put, whether the reftricting words of the clause should be omitted or inferted.

Mr. Grey propofed an amendment that after the words "that it fhall be lawful for fuch commanding officer," thefe words be inferted-" to fummon a board of inquiry, who fhall determine on the propriety of difmiffing fuch volunteer, &c."

Mr. Secretary Yorke objected to this amendment. The clause, as it then ftood, he faid, had been acted upon in a great many inftances in the courfe of the prefent war, and he believed in the laft war. He admitted that the power

given by this claufe to the commanding officer was very great, yet he maintained it was a power given in lieu of many other powers; and he apprehended, that if the House controlled his power within any limits, it would in substance put an end to all real power in the commanding officer, becaufe this was the only mode by which he could retain any effential command. A great deal had been said refpecting the commanding officer calling a court of inquiry: there was no neceffity for making any parliamentary provifion for that purpofe, for that was the conftant practice of the commanders of volunteer corps at prefent; but what he contended for was, that it fhould not be made compulfory on the commanding officer to do fo. And the Committee would understand that this claufe introduced no novelty in practice, for the very fame power which by the claufe was propofed to be beftowed upon the commanding officer, was a power already enjoyed de facto by all commanding officers. Mr. Grey faid, that the duty of the Houfe was not to trust that power would always be well exercised, but to guard against the poffibility of the abufe of it. The right hon. Gentleman had faid, that no new power in point of practice was propofed by this claufe: he did not speak against the claufe on account of new power, but on account of the new effect which was likely to he produced by the exercife of an old power, for it was well known now that a perfon difmiffed from the volunteer corps, was fubject to the army of referve, a penalty which was confiderable, and which could not be commuted but for a large fum of money; and which did not attach in the laft war. He was against the idea of an appeal from the determination of the commanding officer, whatever that determination might be, because to call it in queftion was unfavourable to difcipline; but he would have the commanding officer call a court of inquiry, instead of determining fuch a point himself; and of the propriety of this amendment he was fo well convinced, that he fhould take the fenfe of the Committee upon it.

Mr. Fox faid, there were a great many regulations in the volunteer corps themfelves, at leaft in a great number of them, that were inconfiftent with this claufe, and perfectly confiftent with the amendment propofed in it, and that was a point worthy of the confideration of the Committee.

Mr. Pitt faid, he did not understand it to be the idea of any one, that the decifion of the commanding officer should be reverfed in any cafe whatever; but he had no difficulty in faying that, in his opinion, the beft way would be, for

the

the commanding officer to fummon a council or court of inquiry, that they might exercife their diferetion on the cafe, not indeed like a court of law, according to the rules of fpecial pleading, for that would be impracticable in military matters. He thought it would be better to have the dif cretion of two or three perfons inficad of one in fuch a cafe; but he believed that no perfon in that Houfe would with that any determination fhould be carried into effect, without the approbation of the commanding officer of the corps.

The Attorney General oppofed the amendment, on the ground that it would be unwife in the Committee to reject a claufe which had fo much of utility for its object, until they were fatisfied what it was that was to be propofed in lieu of it; and therefore he thought that unlefs Gentlemen on the other fide who oppofed the claufe fhould ftate diftinctly and fpecifically what they intended to be fubftituted for it, the Committee ought to vote for the clause, because otherwife the Committee might have as much, perhaps more, objection to that which was to be propofed afterwards than any body had to this claufe; and it was indeed difficult, if not impoffible, to offer any thing upon fuch a meafure as this, that was not liable to fome, or even to confiderable oppofition.

Mr. Grey did not think the doctrine of the learned Gentleman found, when he faid that no claufe ought to be negatived by a Committee, however faulty it might be, unless the perfon who objected to it, had a precife form of words to offer inftead of it; but in this cafe the fubftance of what he had to urge in favour of the amendment was so obvious to the Committee, that it would be no great tax even on the ingenuity of the learned Gentleman to put it into a fpecific and intelligible form of words. He could alfo do the fame thing himself very foon, if the Committee adopted the amendment for the purpose of making way for it.

Lord Caflereagh was totally averfe to the idea of eftab-. lifhing a court of inquiry, inftead of committing the cafe to the difcretion of the commanding officer. He apprehended great danger by clogging the difcretion of a com manding officer in cafes of this defcription. He thought the Committee would do well to confider what had been the cafe with Ireland in the late rebellion, and what would have been the case with it if there had not been powers fo confiderable given to the commanding officers there. He did not fay that this was at this time, or was likely to become the condition of England; but it was poffible that the VOL. II. 1803-4. condition

H

condition of this country might be changed materially from what it is at prefent, fince we might naturally look for a continuance of this conteft for a confiderable time at least, and it was impoffible to say what difcontents might not arife, and how effential it might be that the commanding officer fhould have prompt means of removing thofe in whom he could have no confidence in the field. Befides, without this power of difmiffal the commanding officer would not be on an equal footing with any volunteer in the ranks in point of power in this particular. At prefent, every volunteer in the ranks could leave his commanding officer when he pleased without affigning a reason for it, and it was but fair that the commander fhould have a power to the fame extent to difmifs a man, as fuch man had to difmifs himself; as it was lawful for a man to difcharge himself, fo it should be lawful for the commanding officer to discharge him.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer adopted entirely the fentiments of the Attorney General upon this occafion; and he thought, if the power propofed by the claufe fhould be withheld from the commanding officer, and he was to act under compulfion, it might create difunion in the volunteer service, a thing to be avoided as much as poffible, and at all events. The Attorney General repeated his objections to the amendment, and inforced his former arguments in favour of the original clause.

Mr. Fox faid, that the commander of a volunteer corps was not bound by the prefent bill, for any thing it contained at prefent, to state the grounds on which he fhould difmifs any one from the corps: and that was what was, generally fpeaking, odious to an Englishman, for he might be difcharged without knowing his crime. But it was faid, it was probable the commanding officer of a corps would affign reafons why he discharged any man; the meaning of that obfervation, as far as it had a meaning, was, that he ought to ftate his reafons for fo difcharging a man. Now, if he ought to ftate them, why not compel him to state them? Why should a man do any thing which was right without affigning his reafon for doing it? As to negativing this claufe, and the objection of the learned Gentleman to that mode, because no precife form of words was ready to fill the blank which the negative would occafion, he must observe, that it was the conftant course of that House to negative that which it difapproved, without agreeing beforehand what fhould fupply it; and indeed it could not be otherwise, for