said, I pray thee, Father, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house; for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, Father Abraham; but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19,

I claim that this is a true representation of the state of the dead; that Abraham, the Rich Man, and Lazarus are all disembodied spirits in hades. And hence, the gentleman can now, perceive the use I have for the spirit fingers and the spirit tongue. But, the question arises, is hades a real place? I answer, yes. Jesus says the Rich Man lifted up his eyes in hades; and he wishes that Lazarus may be sent to warn his five brethren, lest they should come to this place of torment. Hades is therefore a real place; no matter whether the gentleman can find a locality for it or not; and the condition of Abraham, the Rich Man and Lazarus in bades, proves beyond a reasonable doubt the truth of my proposition, that the spirit of man remains in a conscious state separate from the body between death and the resurrection.

My opponent, however, takes the position that this is all parabolic. According to his view of the matter, the Rich Man represents the Jewish people, and Lazarus the Gentile nations; but as these make up all the world, it is somewhat difficult to find any body to represent the five brethren. The genius of the gentleman, however, has triumphed over the difficulty; and he finds the representative of the five brethren in the ten lost tribes of Israel, who were carried captive by Shalmanezer, king of Assyria, seven hundred and twenty-one years before Christ. "They," he says in his tract on this subject, "were not joined with the Jews (the other two tribes) in condemning and crucifying the Saviour; and therefore they are represented as being in a safer and better condition than the Rich Man." We think Paul refers to them when he says: Brethren my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." When they went into captivity, they took the scriptures with them; hence it is said, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' Now, if I can prove that these ten tribes returned to their own country at the restoration under Ezra and Nehemiah, then of course, the gentleman's theory falls to the ground. Let us see what the scriptures teach on this point. Ezek. 37:16-22. "The word of the Lord came unto me saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions; then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions; and join them one to the other, into one stick; and they shall become one in thy hand. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by this? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God. Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whether they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of

Israel, and one king shall be king to them all, and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more." This union of the two sticks was a beautiful symbolical representation of the union of Judah and Israel, when they should be restored to their own country. Now let us see when that was to take place. Turn to Jeremiah 50: 1. "The word that the Lord spake against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet. Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard: publish and conceal not; say, Babylon is taken, Bél is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces. For out of the north there cometh up a nation against her that shall make her land desolae, and none shall dwell therein: they shall remove, they shall depart both man and beast." This was written at the time of the captivity; and is a prediction of the overthrow of Babylon by the Medo-Persians under Cyrus. Now mark what follows: "In those days, and at that time, saith the Lord, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping; they shall go and seek the Lord their God. They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten." As soon as the Medo-Persians had conquored Babylon and subjugated the Assyrian Empire, a decree was issued by Cyrus for the restoration of "all the people of God," which included both Judah and Israel, to return to their own country. This decree was afterwards renewed by Darius; Ezra 6: 1, and also by Artaxerxes Longimanus; Ezra 7: 11. And now, to prove that they did return according to this prophecy, we have only to refer to the history of the fact, as recorded in Nehemiah 7:73. So the priests, and the Levites, and the porters, and the singers, and some of the people, and the Nethinims, and all Israel, dwelt in their cities; and when the seventh month came, the children of Israel were in their cities." Again, in the 9th. chap. and 2nd. verse: "And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers." In addition to these facts, let it be noted that the Apostle James addressed his general epistle to the "twelve tribes," or to converts from among the twelve tribes; thus showing that in his day the ten tribes were not lost. Nothing can be clearer, there fore, than that the ten tribes of Israel returned to their own country with the children of Judah and Benjamin, at the time of the general restoration under Ezra and Nehemiah, and that they were all united in rejecting and crucifying the Messiah. Hence the gentleman's theory of the "five breth ren" falls to the ground.

But this is not the only difficulty in the way of his parabolic interpreta tion. The rich man died and so did Lazarus; but he makes this one word death to represent two opposite facts; namely, the rejection of the Jews and the reception of the Gentiles! If the one was death, surely the other ought to be called life; for they are exactly opposites.

But let us look at what he says of the "great gulf," which was "fixed" between the two parties, and which could not be passed over. He says it is the "New Covenant, established upon better promises, of which Jesus

was the mediator." If this be true, then, of course, the Jews could not become Christians, nor could the Christians become Jews; there could be no leaving Judaism and coming over to Christianity, nor any leaving Christianity and going over to Judaism; for the "gulf "between the rich man and Lazarus, was an impassible one. "Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, neither can they pass to us who would come from thence." This language represents the respective parties as not being allowed to pass over the gulph," however desirous they might be to do so. Does not the gentleman believe that the Jews could become Christians if they desired to, and that Christians could become Jews, if they were so disposed? Does he believe it impossible to pass from Judaism to Christianity, and from Christianity to Judaism? If so, "the middle wall of partition" has been set up instead of "broken down." But such is not the fact. Multitudes of Jews came over to Christianity in the primitive age of the Church, and multitudes of them, under the influence of persecution and Judaizing teachers, went back to Judaisin again. Thus, according to the gentleman's theory, they were con tinually passing and repassing over an impassible gulf! Such is the absurdity of his parabolic interpretation. We insist that it is not a parable, but a literal statement of facts. Jesus says "there was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, &c., and there was a certain beggar, who sat at the rich man's gate." Not a word is said in the New Testament about its being a parable. The Jews could not have regarded it in that light; for they understood "Abraham's bosom" to be that part of hades alloted to the spirits of the good between death and the resurrection; as we are informed by Josephus in his treaties on hades, Book 18 chap. 1. And I affirm that when Jesus used this phrase, he used it in its ordinary acceptation. It is one of the fundamental canons of interpretation, "that every word not otherwise explained by an author or speaker, shall be taken in its current acceptation at the time when that author or speaker used it." If this rule of interpretation be denied, then there is no confidence to be put in dictionaries of ancient languages, nor in the translation of any ancient book, sacred or profane; for they are all made on the assumption of the truth of this rule. Hence, in ascertaining the meaning of any word, we have only two questions to ask: first, what was the current siguification of the word at the time when it was used? and, second, did the writer or speaker give any special definition of it? To the first of these questions we have already found an answer. We have seen that, according to Josephus, the phrase "Abraham's bosom," at the time when Christ used it, signified that part of hades alloted to good spirits. We have only to enquire, then, did Jesus or his Apostles give any special definition of it. I answer, no-never. Such was always their method when they used any word or phrase in an extraordinary sense. When the word "temple" was used to signify the body of Christ; the word "water" to signify the Holy Spirit; the phrase "lifted up" to signify by what death he should die; the word "leaven" to signify the doctrine of the Pharisees; and the word " sleep" to signify death, they do not omit to explain their meaning, so that all may understand. Hence Jesus must have used the phrase " Abraham's bosom"

in the sense in which it was understood by the Jews of his time, or he would have explained what he did mean by it.

The gentleman sneers at the idea of a disembodied spirit; and asks, "Who has seen or felt one?" I wonder if he does not believe in anything but what he can see, and taste, and handle! Has he no faith? that he must walk altogether by his senses? Paul said, "We walk by faith, not by sight;" but the gentleman refuses to walk by faith. He says, "Show us a spirit, and we will be satisfied." Why does he not ask the same in relation to God and angels? He believes in these, he says; and yet, he does not claim that he has ever seen them.

I believe there is such a place as tartarus, not because I have ever seen it, or can tell where it is located, but because the word of God assures me there is such a place. Peter says, "God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to tartarus, and reserved them in chains to the day of Judgment. Is God a real being? are angels real beings? is sin a real thing? is the day of Judgment a reality? If so, tartarus

is a real place; let the gentleman say what he will about it.

My opponent places a great deal of stress on his favorite passage from Psalms 146 3-4. "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth; he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." That "thoughts" in this passage are designs or purposes, is evident from the first part of the verse, which advises us not to "put our trust in the son of man in whom there is no help." He may have thoughts of kindness towards us; he may purpose to assist us; but death will cut short all his designs; in that very day all his thoughts of kindness towards us perish. I may have thoughts of building a fine mansion, furnishing it richly, and retiring from public life to spend the remainder of my days in ease and pleasure; but death comes upon me suddenly, cutting short my designs, and in that very day all these thoughts perish. James speaks of a certain class who had such thoughts. "Come now, you that say, to-day or to-morrow we will ge into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain; whereas you know not what will be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even as a vapor, which appeareth for a little time, and theu vanisheth away." Thousands of such thoughts perish every day in death; but that does not prove that the dead are unconscious. I have proved to you by the case of the penitent thief, of Moses on the mount of transfiguration, of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and of the spirits in prison, that the spirit of man is conscious between death and the resurrection.

My friend, Mr. Grant, however, claims that the spirit of Christ (that is the Holy Spirit) preached through Noah to the antediluvians. Such may be the case. I do not dispute that the Holy Spirit strove with those sinners in the days of Noah, and through his preaching. He was a preacher of righteousness for a hundred and twenty years; and God said in connection with that matter, "My spirit shall not always strive with man." But I do dispute that Peter had reference to this in the passage cited; and from the authorities introduced there are others of better critical ability than I can boast of, who dispute it too.

1. It was Christ's own personal spirit, and not the Holy Spirit that did the preaching.

2. It was to "spirits in prison," and not to men and women in the flesh, that the preaching was done.

3. It was after Christ was "put to death in the flesh," and not in the days of Noah that he preached to the spirits. They were "disobedient!! in the days of Noah.

I wish to ask the gentleman, how could the spirits have been in prison in the days of Noah, unless he will take my position, that the body is a house, and a prison at that? But he denies this, and even ridicules it, notwithstanding it is a Bible doctrine. The obvious import of the pas sage is that "Christ suffered the shock of death in the flesh, (his body died) but survived it in the spirit, (his spirit lived) by which spirit he went and preached to the spirits in prison, (in hades) who were disobedient when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah."Now the question is, were these spirits conscious or not? If not, how could the spirit of Jesus preach to them? Did the spirit of Jesus preach to uncanscious beings? I could hardly suppose my friend, Mr. Grant, capable of committing such a blunder. The gentleman may, if he chooses, carry out the idea a little further, and get up a post mortem gospel; but I will not be responsible for that. I solemnly avow my belief that this present state of existance is the only place of probation; that the gospel is designed for, and adapted to man as he is, in this life; and that if he does not avail himself of its blessings here, he will never have an opportunity of doing so in the world to come. Still, I believe the spirit of Jesus made some kind of proclamation to the spirits of the antediluvians in prison. The record does not tell what he preached; and where the record is silent, I will be silent also. I do not, of course, suppose that he preached to them "repentance and remission of sins."

I understand the "prison" to be hades. But in what sense is hades a prison. The spirits of both good and bad are reserved in its precincts till the resurrection and the final Judgment, when all will be judged according to the deeds done in the body, and assigned their eternal destiny either in Heaven or hell (gehenna). In the mean time, in hades, they suffer torment, or enjoy comfort only in a limited degree. Lazarus, we are informed, was "comforted," but the Rich Man was tormented."But how are they comforted or tormented in hades? Suppose two men to be lodged in prison to await their trial at the sitting of the court. One is innocent; the other is guilty. The innocent one is comforted by a sense of his innocence, knowing that if justice is done him at his trial, he will be acquitted. But the guilty one is tormented by a sense of his guilt, knowing full well that if justice is done him at his trial, he will be condemned. Now the spirits both of the good and the bad who are in hades awaiting the Judgment of the Great Day, know that the strictest justice will be meted out to them; because Jesus Christ is to be their Judge. He cannot err in the decisions of his tribunal. He will "give to every man according as his works shall be found." [Time Expired]