FIRST SPEECH OF ELD. GRANT.

Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen:

As has been well remarked by my friend on the opposite side, the ques tion is one of importance. We are free to grant that, if he sustains his position, he sustains an argument for hero worship,-for the practice among the heathen of burning widows that their spirits may go and be with the spirits of their husbands,-of putting hundreds of slaves to death that their spirits may go up and wait upon their lords, deceased :— It also sustains the doctrine of purgatory, Spiritualism, Swedenborgianism, eternal misery, etc., etc.

I will grant, Mr. Chairman, that if my opponent's position is sustained, that an argument for these is sustained. We make this remark that you may see how we look at the subject and the importance we attach to the position we may take this evening.

My opponent has the long arm of the lever, or the long end of the yoke, from this fact; he has all our tracts that we have published on this subject, and has been pleased to review arguments which have not been brought forward yet. But we grant him all that advantage, for if we have the truth, we are willing to take the short end of the yoke; and if we have not the truth, the sooner we know it the better. What we advocate, we believe just as strongly as our brother on the opposite side, because we think the Bible teaches it. [Applause.] As we differ-one, or both of us, must be wrong; both cannot be right; and we hope that, during our discussion, we shall proceed calmly, without excitement; and be assured that God will take care of his own truth.

We may not get time to notice all the points our brother has been over. He remarks first, that man is a compound being; that the spirit is the intelligent part, and the body is the house for the spirit to occupy. This spirit, he says, is in the form of the physical organism; and when a man's physical arm is cut off, that spiritual organization remains. He quotes Dr. Litch as authority. We wish for better. It is a fact that after a while that sensation is all gone. How is this? Has the man worn out his spirit arm? We have this testimony from those who have had experience. It is true, for a while, he feels a kind of sensation, and we are told by our opponent, that this physical organization may be all cut up and hacked to pieces, yet we cannot hurt the spirit. That is a bold assertion and we challenge the proof. The idea is that after my arm is cut off, I have a spirit arm, so that I can run it into the fire and feel no sensation; yet we are told that the spirit is the thinking part. Where is the proof that the fire cannot hurt it? Mr. Lee says that the frost cannot affect this spirit. He says that it cannot be cut with saws and knives, and yet this is called the "real man." This spirit is said to be the intelligent entity in man. Our resolution reads, "When man dies his spirit remains in a conscious state, separate from the body until the resurrection." Is that spirit the man, sir?

When man dies where is he then? "when man dies ?" The Bible says,

Is the spirit the man? Why say man dies," and does not intimate

that the man is alive when he is dead, or that any part of him thinks or knows anything when he is dead. This spirit he says, is the intelligent entity, and remarks that our tract shows "all sorts of twisting and turning done here."

We were then referred to Job, 32: 8, as the first Scripture proof.— "But there is a spirit in man and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding." Is that spirit, man? "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground." The Bible declares he breathed into his nostrils" the spirit man? no, sir! "The breath of life, and man became"-an immortal soul? no! a living soul." That is the account of

the creation.

"There is a spirit in man." We are ready to grant that there is an intelligence in man. But we are told that our tract says, that this word ruach does not represent the intelligent part in man. Let me read."From a careful examination of the word ruach in the Old Testament, and pneuma in the New, we are fully satisfied that these words are never used in the Bible, to represent conscious entity, or being, that leaves man at death to enter heaven, hell, or the spheres." That is what our tract says. The idea was carried that we said that man had not an intelligent spirit in him." Our tract says, the spirit is not a "conscious entity, or being, that leaves man at death to enter Heaven, hell, or the spheres."We repeat it again.

"There is a spirit in man and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding." We do not see that this passage proves that his conscious spirit goes off when he is dead. We do not see that it bears at all on the resurrection. My opponent thinks it does, and we will meet it more fully. Job says, in chap. 27: 3, "all the while my breath is in me and the spirit of God is in my nostrils." Was the intelligent part of Job in his nostrils? yet he declares this fact," The spirit of God is in my nostrils." The word in these passages rendered spirit is the same as used by David when he says, "Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath-they die and return to their dust.” Psalms 104: 29.

We are next referred to Eccl. 12: 7. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." We are told very positively that this spirit is a being that cannot be cut with saws or knives, or injured in any way. Hack or chop a man all up, and you have not affected the spirit in him. Let us go back to the account of the creation. "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul."-Gen. 2: 7. "Thou hidest thy face they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die and return to their dust." This last is an account of man's death-the opposite of creation. What was the dust? That is man according to the Bible record; for I read in Gen. 3: 19, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return."

Now sir, if the spirit cannot be affected by any material agency, and is

the thinking part, that is the part God addresses when he says, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground." Mr. Chairman, we never talk to the house. We are told that the body is only the house for the spirit to live in. Then God is talking to this spirit when he says, "Unto dust shalt thou return." In harmony with this is Eccl. 12: 7. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it." What is that spirit which returns from man? We make the assertion and intend to sustain it, that nothing but "the breath of life" leaves man when he dies. We repeat it, and make the remark on the authority of the Bible, sound philosophy, common sense, and all facts, that nothing but "the breath of life," breathed into man's nostrils, leaves him when he dies. We challenge the proof to the contrary.

The word rendered spirit in Eccl. 12: 7, occurs four hundred times in the Old Testament, and three hundred and eighty-five in the New, and yet in all these seven hundred and eighty-five times, this word is not rendered soul once; but my opponent has endeavored to confound the two. The words are not used interchangeably in a single case, either in the Old or the New Testament.

This word rendered spirit, in Eccl. 12: 7, is rendered wind ninety-five times. It is also rendered air, tempest and whirl-wind. Job says, in speaking of the Leviathan, that "his scales are....so near to one another, that no air can come between them.". -Job 41: 16.

ence.

We are referred to Zech. 12: 1. "The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him." Suppose we admit what my friend claims, that the spirit is formed within him, does that prove it is an intelligent being? Does it prove that it goes away an intelligent man when the man is dead? "He formeth the spirit of man within him." In these words, the Lord makes himself known as the Creator of "the breath of life," to sustain man's existIn Amos 4: 13 we have a corresponding passage, where the same word is rendered wind. "For, lo, he formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thoughts, that maketh the morning darkness and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, the Lord, the God of Hosts, is his name." We hold it is not essential to take the position that the spirit is first formed in man. Zechariah when speaking of the act of creation, says: he "layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit," or the breath, or the air that is" within him." 66 For, lo, he that formeth the mountains and createth the wind.--the Lord....is his name."

My brother says that spirits have forms and that some of the Jews did not believe in angels or spirits. The Pharisees believed in both. We find that angels are called spirits, and we read of "the father of spirits." These angels, when they have appeared on the earth, have had forms.They stayed all night with Lot, ate with him, and were also entertained by Abraham. An angel came to the sepulchre of Christ, and rolled away the stone and sat upon it; and they saw him sitting there and were afraid.

We are also exhorted to entertain strangers, for by so doing we may entertain "angels unawares," but not disembodied spirits!

Mark 6: 49 was refered to by our opponent-" But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out." The word here rendered spirit, is phantasma-a phantom. This word occurs in only one other passage-Matt. 14: 26. A phantom is not a reality. We have read of the "Phantom Ship," and other phantom appearances. A ship was seen coming into port. The people thought they knew the ship, as one which had sailed from their harbor a while before; when all at once, it vanished from their sight and was heard of no more We will illustrate our idea of phantoms. Very often when we are travelling in the cars at night, we look out through the window, and see the opposite side of the car very distinctly. That is a phantom. When we look more carefully, we can see the stars and the trees through it.

We are next referred to where Christ appeared to his disciples and said a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." Angels are spirits; but they have not "flesh and bones" they have tangible organisms; without them it is impossible for a being to exist. The angels, or spirits, are not made of dust as we are.

We were referred to Mark 14: 38. "The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak."

Does that prove that it exists out of the organism? This refers to a man's feelings. Our feelings are often willing to perform an act, but the flesh is weak. We do not see how this proves the position that the spirit exists in a conscious state out of the body.

We are next referred to 1 Cor. 2: 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the spirit of God." We read about a "spirit of error," a "spirit of bondage," a "spirit of Anti-Christ," and of some twenty more different kinds of spirits. Are we to understand, sir, that each of these will live as conscious beings when the man is dead? How do we get a knowledge of our sins forgiven? By our feelings. We got it in that and so does every man; i. e., the Spirit of God operates upon the nervous system. But we fail to see that this proves that a man lives on, when all his organization is in ruins.

way

My brother claims that it is the spirit of man which is the subject of regeneration. We read, "If the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies, by his spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom. 8:11. Christ was the first born from the dead, and if the spirit which was in him dwell in us, it shall quicken these "mortal bodies." We believe in regeneration; we believe in conversion; but we do not believe this passage proves the assertion, that the spirit of man is that which we cannot cut, saw, chop or burn.

We are referred to Eccl. 8: 8. "There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death; and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those who are given to it."

The spirit in this passage evidently refers to the breath which God takes away. No man can retain it against his will.

My friend remarks, that the spirit carries its powers with it, and refers to Stephen in Acts 7: 59, and to Christ.

Mr. Chairman, the latter is out of order; we are discussing the nature of men, not of the Son of God.

Stephen said,

said this, He fell burial." He felt me in the grave."

Lord Jesus, receive my spirit... And when he had. asleep." "And devout men carried Stephen to his like Job, when he said, "O! that thou wouldest bide The word here rendered spirit, is the same that is rendered breath. Stephen wished that his breath might be taken away, so that he could fall asleep in death. [Time expired.]

SECOND SPEECH OF ELD. CLAYTON.

Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen:

I was sorry that my opponent in his last speech endeavored to throw discredit upon the doctrine which I advocate by making it responsible for all the absurdities of hero worship, witchcraft, spirit manifestations, &c., &e. It reminded me of the old infidel objection to the Bible, founded on the abuses of Christianity. I suppose that the gentleman is aware of the fact that infidels have sought to make Christianity responsible for all the gross absurdities and abuses which have been believed in and practiced by its professors. But that does not invalidate the truth of Christianity. I am not here to-night, Mr. President, to affirm that a good thing cannot be abused. And if I should succeed in showing that the doctrine of the conscious existance of the human spirit is true, and some should jump to the conclusion of modern spirit manifestations, the doctrine which I advocate cannot be held responsible for it. The gentleman called in question the accuracy of my quotation from his tract entitled, "The Spirit in Man." He said he never stated in this tract "that he found no passage in the Bible going to prove that the spirit while in man is the intelligent accountable part; but he found no passage proving that the spirit flies away at death." He then read from his tact a different passage from the one that I referred to. I will now turn to the passage and read it, that you may see exactly how the matter stands. It commences on page 31, and reads as follows: "In all the 400 passages in the Old, and the 385 in the New Testament, where these words [rendered spirit] occur, we do not find one which teaches that when this spirit is in man, it is the thinking accountable part; or that ever did or ever will think." Now then, my friends, I will just refer to my notes, where the passage is written out in full, to show you that I quoted it correctly. Here it is: "In all the 400 passages in the Old, and the 385 in the New Testament, where the words rendered spirit occur, we do not find one that teaches that when this spirit is in man, it is the thinking accountable part; or that it ever did or ever will think." Am I not correct, Mr. President? and is not the gentleman wrong?